The Syrian Conflict Thread

[thestaggy]

They did decide that and tried to peacefully force Assad to reform and/or step down. Then he started butchering them. Same as in Libya, the people fomented the uprisings. So the question is, after these uprisings have already begun and the people begged for foreign help, why do people say we should just leave them to sort out their own problems?

They manifestly can't do it on their own, or without incurring massive civilian loss of life.

Look at Rwanda. That's what happens when you 'leave them to sort out their own problems'. I certainly hope that if that were to ever happen to the country I live in that foreigners would help and not just let people get massacred by the hundreds of thousands.

As I have made clear, I supported earlier action IF the demand was made by the people. The Libyans called for help and got it. As for Syria, she has received limited military support by the US via the Saudis and Turks. Why hasn't there been outright support a la Libya? Russia and Iran. Russia did not agree with Libyan intervention but she didn't make the fuss she is making over Syria. Iran wasn't threatening to attack Israel over Libya.

 

[falcon786]

Kerry wants to bomb Syria so badly

#'MuricansAreCrazy

To be honest I opposed the dum war in Iraq as pure bullying tactics by America doing what they want for whatever reason they want because they can,but in this particular case I have to say I hope they do take action.

The people of Syria clearly cant liberate themselves even though they are trying.They need help.Would you say let them continue dying at the hands of Assad?

 

[OrbitalDawn]

To be honest I opposed the dum war in Iraq as pure bullying tactics by America doing what they want for whatever reason they want because they can,but in this particular case I have to say I hope they do take action.

The people of Syria clearly cant liberate themselves even though they are trying.They need help.Would you say let them continue dying at the hands of Assad?

And Hussein wasn't killing and torturing people?

 

[Lightscribe]

Those uprisings, which were successful in the beginning, received no outside support and ran out of steam.

The above statement is telling. The support of the people you are trying to free is crucial.

I disagree. Toppling Hussein is not on the same line as the Tunisian uprisings that kicked off the Arab Spring.

I do agree that Hussein may have acted against Syria, but it would be controlled and easier to combat in the long-term as a Hussein-led Iraq was still a largely stable and uniform entity and not a mish-mash of foreign born radicals that have no easily traceable structures and bases of operation. Defeating Hussein & dismantling his army was easier than the on-going attempts to stop Al Qaeda and her affiliates.

The sanctions and inspection worked. They destroyed Iraq's military capacity.

Scott Ritter, UN weapons inspector for UNSCOM (1991 - 1998);

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Ritter

All of what Ritter says corroborates the admissions by Powell and Rumsfed that WMD accusations were trumped up.

Hussein himself acknowledged how effective the sanctions were in corroding his military capacity.

So what would I have done? Maintained arms sanctions and sanctions on other materials of strategic military nature (uranium, etc) but lighten up on other areas to try and attempt a softer form of diplomacy to entice Hussein to not be such a hardliner.

And saddam would have hugged and loved you.

Earlier this year, some of America's top counter-terrorism and national security experts gathered for their 2006 Intelligence Summit. There, UN weapons inspector Bill Tierney provided a first-ever translation of captured tapes featuring Saddam Hussein and his lieutenants discussing — you guessed it — WMDs.

One tape features Saddam and Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz discussing the ease with which Iraq could conduct — and arrange for a third party (presumably al Qaeda) to carry out — a biological weapons attack against America in such a way that "they wouldn't finger us."

Others detail Iraq's success in hiding its rockets and its chemical weapons factories from UN inspectors. Saddam himself makes clear — as the Duelfer Report later asserted — that his program, far from dormant, would crank into full gear as soon as sanctions were lifted.

Most important: the tapes conclusively establish that Saddam had no intention of destroying his WMDs after the Gulf War — just as the NGIC report now proves.

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/martin/060629

To be honest I opposed the dum war in Iraq as pure bullying tactics by America doing what they want for whatever reason they want because they can,but in this particular case I have to say I hope they do take action.

The people of Syria clearly cant liberate themselves even though they are trying.They need help.Would you say let them continue dying at the hands of Assad?

Well said.

 

[Grant]

To be honest I opposed the dum war in Iraq as pure bullying tactics by America doing what they want for whatever reason they want because they can,but in this particular case I have to say I hope they do take action.

The people of Syria clearly cant liberate themselves even though they are trying.They need help.Would you say let them continue dying at the hands of Assad?

Is it not a little more appropriate that a middle eastern country, or coalition try calm the situation.
The Arab League is remarkably silent while all this is going on - especially given one of it's very founding reasons was the resolution of disputes. If any group or body should take decisions & action, surely it should be them.

 

[Alan]

And Hussein wasn't killing and torturing people?

But those were predominantly Kurds and Shia

 

[falcon786]

And Hussein wasn't killing and torturing people?

Not like this,it wasn't full on uprising and a dragged out civil war.

 

[falcon786]

Is it not a little more appropriate that a middle eastern country, or coalition try calm the situation.
The Arab League are remarkably silent while all this is going on - especially given one of it's very founding reasons was the resolution of disputes. If any group or body should take decisions & action, surely it should be them.

They are a bunch of wussies more worried about their mansions with air-conditioned bird cages stretching into the desert and underground basements with 140 super cars,the plight of their fellow neighboring civilians doesn't mean much to them.Why do you think there was an Arab spring...it will take time to assess if it was successful in those countries that had it.Syria is one state whose dictator could not be overthrown by the Arab spring unfortunately.The current crisis is a direct result of that action.



Why do you think the Saudi's hate their government so much?

 

[Lightscribe]

Is it not a little more appropriate that a middle eastern country, or coalition try calm the situation.
The Arab League is remarkably silent while all this is going on - especially given one of it's very founding reasons was the resolution of disputes. If any group or body should take decisions & action, surely it should be them.

I agree, that the USA should stick to covert ops assistance, but the vast majority of help should be from the Arab League and countries in the region.

 

[Alan]

Not like this,it wasn't full on uprising and a dragged out civil war.

Really? In two campaigns against the Kurds and Shia he slaughted between 130 000 and 330 000 people. Add to that the million deaths from his war against Iran. But he was okay....

 

[falcon786]

I agree, that the USA should stick to covert ops assistance, but the vast majority of help should be from the Arab League and countries in the region.

For regional stability theres no doubt that would be great but will they do it?

 

[falcon786]

Really? In two campaigns against the Kurds and Shia he slaughted between 130 000 and 330 000 people. Add to that the million deaths from his war against Iran. But he was okay....

I didn't say he was ok.

 

[LazyLion]

[SATIRE] Barack Obama's response to Putin's op-ed piece!

Imagine my surprise when I opened the New York Times and read Vladimir Putin's Op-ed. I didn't know what I was reading for a few minutes. Sometime's my Chief of Staff will put The Onion in front of me just to shake things up so it took me a moment to realize this was not a joke.

First off, let me say I had a very nice time at the G20. The food was good, although a bit heavy for my taste, and the weather was pleasant. Certainly you can see the sky sometimes, which you can never do in China.

As I continued to read the Op-ed, I really couldn't understand whether we were being insulted or praised. Mr. Putin seemed to respect the United States for one paragraph, and then blast us in another. Now understand, I admire Mr. Putin. For his age he seems to be in great physical shape and even though I could kick his ass in basketball I do believe that if a bear were to attack the both of us, he would be the one to shoo it away.

But let's make one thing perfectly clear: this is written by a man who is the head of Russia. Russia, where the air conditioning in the room conked out even though I was in the Presidential Suite. Russia, where no one smiles and where people actually look disappointed that they are white.

Mr. Putin, we put a man on the moon and you barely got a monkey home safely. We invented the computer and you invented the way to steal it. Your country is filled with our fast food businesses and yet there is not one Russian take out place in the whole United States.

You are known for Siberia, we are known for Big Sur. We make Cadillacs and Lincolns and God knows what you call those little square deathtraps. It's one thing to put down exceptionalism, but before you do that, you at least have to produce one Broadway show, or make one commercial airliner, or invent one type of salad.

Having said that, your people are wonderful and I know that you care about them deeply, except, of course, for the gay ones. As a matter of fact, you care about them so much that you hate to see them argue, especially with you, so you graciously offer them the solace of prison.

In any case, I enjoyed your editorial and I am very impressed that it was printed in The New York Times. If only there was a newspaper in your country that would print this.

My very best wishes,


Barack Obama.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alber...yria_b_3914774.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Not like this,it wasn't full on uprising and a dragged out civil war.

Eh? Lemme quote what I put in a post from a different thread.

"he [Saddam] murdered as many as a million of his people, many with poison gas. He tortured, maimed and imprisoned countless more. His unprovoked invasion of Iran is estimated to have left another million people dead. His seizure of Kuwait threw the Middle East into crisis. More insidious, arguably, was the psychological damage he inflicted on his own land. Hussein created a nation of informants — friends on friends, circles within circles — making an entire population complicit in his rule". Other estimates as to the number of Iraqis killed by Saddam's regime vary from roughly a quarter to half a million, including 50,000 to 182,000 Kurds and 25,000 to 280,000 killed during the repression of the 1991 rebellion. Estimates for the number of dead in the Iran-Iraq war range upwards from 300,000.

"During the 1991 rebellion, several "dungeons" were liberated, revealing "disoriented and confused" inmates that believed Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr was still the president. Of nearly 2 million refugees created by the 1991 crackdown on dissent, it is estimated that 1,000 died every day for a period of months due to unsanitary and inhumane conditions."

"Methods of torture used by Hussein's regime included assault with brass knuckles and wooden bludgeons; electric shocks to the genitalia; scorched metal rods being forced into body orifices; the crushing of toes and removal of toenails; burning off limbs; lowering prisoners into vats of acid; poisoning with thallium; raping women in front of their family members; burning with cigarette butts; the crushing of bones; the amputation of ears, limbs, and tongues; and the gouging of eyes."

And what about the mass graves still being unearthed almost daily?

"International Experts estimated 300,000 victims could be in these mass graves alone."

"- The 1983 attack against Kurdish citizens belonging to the Barzani tribe, 8,000 of whom were rounded up by the regime in northern Iraq and executed in deserts at great distances from their homes.

- The 1988 Anfal campaign, during which as many as 182,000 Iraqi Kurds disappeared. Most of the men were separated from their families and were executed in deserts in the west and southwest of Iraq. The remains of some of their wives and children have also been found in mass graves.

- Chemical attacks against Kurdish villages from 1986 to 1988, including the Halabja attack, when the Iraqi Air Force dropped sarin, VX and tabun chemical agents on the civilian population, killing 5,000 people immediately and causing long-term medical problems, related deaths, and birth defects among the progeny of thousands more."

Still think he wasn't that bad?

 

[falcon786]

Eh? Lemme quote what I put in a post from a different thread.



Still think he wasn't that bad?

Talk about a long drawn out quote for nothing lol...

I didn't say he was ok.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Talk about a long drawn out quote for nothing lol...

Copy + pasting isn't that much of an effort.

But anyway, you also said:

Not like this,it wasn't full on uprising and a dragged out civil war.

 

[killadoob]

I didn't say he was ok.

You know the scary thing, the US knew he was gassing the kurds and blamed iran.

So why is that fine to know someone is gassing people firstly, secondly is it right to blame another country when you know who actually gassed them.

So saddam gasses the kurds the americans blame iran. Gas attack in syria US blame assad. Why was there no red line for rebels? Saddam all over again i guess.

 

[AthenianOwl]

To be honest I opposed the dum war in Iraq as pure bullying tactics by America doing what they want for whatever reason they want because they can,but in this particular case I have to say I hope they do take action.

The people of Syria clearly cant liberate themselves even though they are trying.They need help.Would you say let them continue dying at the hands of Assad?

This equation shows why it's really a bad idea for USA to get involved in the Syrian civil war:

USA helps the rebels = USA helps Al-Qaeda.

 

[killadoob]

A court indictment by the Turkish prosecutors into the alleged use of chemical weapons by the Syrian rebels has once again highlighted fears this week that sarin toxic gas was used by the opposition and not the Assad government.

The prosecutor in the Turkish city of Adana has issued a 132-page indictment, alleging that six men of the al-Qaeda-linked al-Nusra Front and Ahrar ash-Sham tried to seek out chemicals with the intent to produce the nerve agent, sarin gas, a number of Turkish publications reported. Meanwhile all six suspects have pleaded not guilty. “The suspects have pleaded not guilty saying that they had not been aware the materials they had tried to obtain could have been used to make sarin gas. Suspects have been consistently providing conflicting and incoherent facts on this matter,” the indictment said.

If convicted, Qassab faces a 25 year prison sentence, while his accomplices face 15 years prison terms.

The six men were a part of a group of 11 people arrested in their safe house in Adana on May 23, 2013. Their apprehension came about after surveillance by Turkish police who’d received a tip that Syrian jihadists were trying to acquire two government-regulated military-grade chemical substances. Five of the detained were released from custody after questioning, background checks and after lab tests proved that chemicals seized during the arrest were not sarin gas.

The main suspect in the case, 35-year-old Syrian-national Hytham Qassap has been charged with “being a member of a terrorist organization” and “attempting to acquire weapons for a terrorist organization.” The other 5, all Turkish nationals are being charged with “attempting to acquire weapons for a terrorist organization.”

The indictment alleges that Qassap tried to setup a network in Turkey in order to obtain chemical materials for the al-Nusra Front and Ahrar al-Sham Brigades. Citing telephone calls made by the cell, the prosecution believes that the group ordered at least ten tons of chemicals, Al-Alam News Network reports.

The prosecution also dismissed claims that the suspects were unaware of their wrong doing. “The claim that the suspects didn’t know about the possibility of producing sarin nerve gas from the chemicals they tried to buy is not true which was established when they were testifying,” the document reads.

http://rt.com/news/turkey-syria-chemical-weapons-850/

Interesting, the turks hate assad. Where is your red line mr obama? o wait rebels don't have a red line. Sounds like iraq all over again, blame someone else when you know who used the chemical weapons.

 

[zippy]

http://rt.com/news/turkey-syria-chemical-weapons-850/

Interesting, the turks hate assad. Where is your red line mr obama? o wait rebels don't have a red line. Sounds like iraq all over again, blame someone else when you know who used the chemical weapons.

/yawn sounds like Killanoob again..