The Telegram Conundrum

[airborne]

Anyone here with an MTN prepaid account should activate the extender service

I virtually never make outgoing calls on my Mtn prepaid sim but people phone me and I use lots of data, surely that's enough to prevent a number from being recycled?

Was the sim of the number you lost not in a device that was regularly connected to the network?

 

[airborne]

The fact there isn't a failover requesting an SMS or even a phone call is pretty crazy.

And you can't forcibly log out other devices unless you are already logged in, in which case you would get the code anyway.

But now that you mentioned it had this exact thing with a friend of mine who moved to the UK and couldn't authenticate with the old number to login to a new device and ended up just making a new one entirely.

I’m struggling to understand the problem, surely Telegram allows you to reclaim your Telegram account using the registered number??
I have seen an unusual amount of people complaining about losing Telegram access, it definitely seems Telegarm support is doing something really daft in the way account recovery is managed, it seems you can't even add a fall back recovery method?

@Fulcrum29 how does account recovery on Telegram differ from WhatsApp?
On WhatsApp you just need access to the linked number or the registered fallback email which they recently added to load the account on a new device and also change the linked number.

 

[SauRoNZA]

I’m struggling to understand the problem, surely Telegram allows you to reclaim your Telegram account using the registered number??
I have seen an unusual amount of people complaining about losing Telegram access, it definitely seems Telegarm support is doing something really daft in the way account recovery is managed, it seems you can't even add a fall back recovery method?

@Fulcrum29 how does account recovery on Telegram differ from WhatsApp?
On WhatsApp you just need access to the linked number or the registered fallback email which they recently added to load the account on a new device and also change the linked number.

If the account is logged in somewhere else they send the authentication code there.

The only time it will send an SMS is if all sessions are logged out and you start a brand new session on a new device.

So now you get a number used on Telegram previously and still logged in...and you are up **** creek.

Only if you've added that email beforehand do you have a chance of using that to login, which is why I've recommended all Telegram users do exactly that and it was part of Telegram's flow to do this but it could be skipped as I recall.

Fallback options are there...once you are logged in. The problem here is being unable to login on a new number in the first place.

 

[Fulcrum29]

I virtually never make outgoing calls on my Mtn prepaid sim but people phone me and I use lots of data, surely that's enough to prevent a number from being recycled?

Was the sim of the number you lost not in a device that was regularly connected to the network?

This is the puzzling bit. The last outgoing call I made with the phone was on December 24th, but I used mobile data all the time when I wasn't on WiFi. Every month I would 'recharge' the account. I think by the time the MSISDN was disconnected, there was R36 on the account. 1) I did recharge the account, 2) I did use network data, and 3) there was R36 loaded (the amount is irrelevant). The 90-day dormancy period doesn't match because I did have revenue-generating activities, but the 115 days of disconnection for the MSISDN aligns, sort of, not accurate, but close. I, however, did not receive an SMS that the account would be disconnected. The last SMS was a WASP promo sent on the 10th. I was very, and very much so, annoyed by this. The line was still active on the 13th, it was disconnected on the 14th.

Since this was a prepaid account, I understood the rules and the burden on the user. I didn't want to argue, as I would have to justify it without a chance of success. Even if I can prove it, the number registered to my identity is locked in a recycling process. This was a number that is RICA'd to my identity in any case. I could still access my MTN mobile app with my number since I wasn't logged out, but everything displayed as "null." Then when I went to the shop, they said that the line shows as active, but is deactivated in the backend. At this point, we started to process a SIM swap, but the shop couldn't process it on their side. So they dialled the call centre on my behalf, who also couldn't do anything, and then they escalated the issue. 24 hours later, I called the call centre with the reference hoping to receive some positive news, but they replied, to quote:

"This number was disconnected from the install base. Get assistance at the point of sale. Can't be reactivated at our side."

The shop I was at was the point of sale all of those years ago. This just left me confused. I am aware of people who have data-only SIMs that have been disconnected in the same manner, most of whom were third-party services making use of the network. The following day at the shop, the number was reinstated already, but not for me. I gave up, and got a new number.

All of this said, the staff at the MTN shop was very helpful; they did the best they could. I can't fault them. What I can say is that they can get much further with their own call centre than I could. Just the mention of doing a SIM swap expedited the process. When they saw how old the SIM was, lol, they thought it to be the reason for not connecting to the network.

I believe their system failed to detect any revenue-generating activity, leading to the MSISDN being disconnected due to inactivity. This is considered a disconnection by the user. Why I didn't receive a warning SMS thereof... I dunno.

All of the admin stuff is registered to my personal number, so it wasn't a big deal. A slow process of changing the number on all of my cloud/online services, IM, etc. was going to take some time, but it is doable. Then I got to Telegram...

Just a final thing. When I first noticed the disconnection, I immediately called the call centre, and they also said that the line was active, and then redirected me to the coverage department who couldn't assist. The amount of times they sent me to a new department... /ugh. So yeah, going to the shop was the most helpful approach.

EDIT: That promo SMS I received falls after the 90 days. I have no idea if it is business days or any days. Either way, it doesn't line up.

 

[Fulcrum29]

As previously said, if you have a critical MTN prepaid number, just subscribe to the MTN Access4Life Xtender service. I was actually unaware of this service. Now all of my prepaid numbers are subscribed, just two though. If this fails, oh jinne.

For those not wanting to lose their MTN line for reasons...

MTN Access4Life Extender​

2.1. If a customer who subscribes on Access4Life Xtender reaches 115 days without having any activity on the SIM, the product will attempt to charge the R5 service fee from the mobile number. If the transaction is successful, the SIM card will not be deactivated, and the SIM will start a new activity cycle.

2.2. The service is activated by calling 136, and following the self-service voice prompts in the main menu.

2.3. If a customer wishes to go out of South Africa and cannot use the SIM card for a certain period but wants to keep their number, then the customer may extend the Access4Life period by paying R5 and add an additional 90 days to the period. Once the initial 90 days have passed, the additional 90 days will be added, keeping the mobile number connected to the MTN network. A customer can “activate” the service by following the detailed actions and load sufficient airtime into the evergreen wallet to cover the period. The service will continuously deduct R5 from the evergreen wallet for every 90 days that elapses while the service is active. A customer will need to cancel the service upon the return to South Africa; otherwise, the service will continue to deduct R5 every 90 days until it is cancelled.

2.4. Effective from the 1 September 2020, New MTN Access4Life Xtender subscription fee is reduced to R5.

 

[Neuk_]

I don't have the same but a similar issue, I simply changed phones, I cannot get Telegram to get back to me as to why their 'system' or process will not send activation codes via either SMS or email. Luckily I haven't wiped my old phone as I still need to transfer some things but Telegram are silent on the matter...

 

[Fulcrum29]

I don't have the same but a similar issue, I simply changed phones, I cannot get Telegram to get back to me as to why their 'system' or process will not send activation codes via either SMS or email. Luckily I haven't wiped my old phone as I still need to transfer some things but Telegram are silent on the matter...

That is strange. I installed Telegram X (the beta build) as it was said to still be able to do SMS when changing a number or adding a new session, and I could register a new session with email. It doesn't do SMS though. Telegram locked that down hard. Only new numbers, or numbers not attached to an account, can receive an SMS. The proxy thing certainly does not work. I went through them all.

 

[airborne]

This is the puzzling bit. The last outgoing call I made with the phone was on December 24th, but I used mobile data all the time when I wasn't on WiFi. Every month I would 'recharge' the account. I think by the time the MSISDN was disconnected, there was R36 on the account. 1) I did recharge the account, 2) I did use network data, and 3) there was R36 loaded (the amount is irrelevant). The 90-day dormancy period doesn't match because I did have revenue-generating activities, but the 115 days of disconnection for the MSISDN aligns, sort of, not accurate, but close. I, however, did not receive an SMS that the account would be disconnected. The last SMS was a WASP promo sent on the 10th. I was very, and very much so, annoyed by this. The line was still active on the 13th, it was disconnected on the 14th.

Since this was a prepaid account, I understood the rules and the burden on the user. I didn't want to argue, as I would have to justify it without a chance of success. Even if I can prove it, the number registered to my identity is locked in a recycling process. This was a number that is RICA'd to my identity in any case. I could still access my MTN mobile app with my number since I wasn't logged out, but everything displayed as "null." Then when I went to the shop, they said that the line shows as active, but is deactivated in the backend. At this point, we started to process a SIM swap, but the shop couldn't process it on their side. So they dialled the call centre on my behalf, who also couldn't do anything, and then they escalated the issue. 24 hours later, I called the call centre with the reference hoping to receive some positive news, but they replied, to quote:

"This number was disconnected from the install base. Get assistance at the point of sale. Can't be reactivated at our side."

The shop I was at was the point of sale all of those years ago. This just left me confused. I am aware of people who have data-only SIMs that have been disconnected in the same manner, most of whom were third-party services making use of the network. The following day at the shop, the number was reinstated already, but not for me. I gave up, and got a new number.

All of this said, the staff at the MTN shop was very helpful; they did the best they could. I can't fault them. What I can say is that they can get much further with their own call centre than I could. Just the mention of doing a SIM swap expedited the process. When they saw how old the SIM was, lol, they thought it to be the reason for not connecting to the network.

I believe their system failed to detect any revenue-generating activity, leading to the MSISDN being disconnected due to inactivity. This is considered a disconnection by the user. Why I didn't receive a warning SMS thereof... I dunno.

All of the admin stuff is registered to my personal number, so it wasn't a big deal. A slow process of changing the number on all of my cloud/online services, IM, etc. was going to take some time, but it is doable. Then I got to Telegram...

Just a final thing. When I first noticed the disconnection, I immediately called the call centre, and they also said that the line was active, and then redirected me to the coverage department who couldn't assist. The amount of times they sent me to a new department... /ugh. So yeah, going to the shop was the most helpful approach.

EDIT: That promo SMS I received falls after the 90 days. I have no idea if it is business days or any days. Either way, it doesn't line up.

But going by that your sim should not have been deactivated, there's something else at play here, maybe a system glitch because you were doing revenue generating activity as defined by their T&Cs.

If you do not use your SIM cards on the MTN network at least once every 90 days (no revenue generating activities).MTN shall be entitled to cancel this MSISDN and deactivate your SIM card from the MTN network.

1.1 Newly provisioned MSISDNs are considered active on
• First recharge
• Receive and answer an incoming call
• Receive promo value adds on activation
1.2 Revenue Generating Activities
• Make a chargeable call
• Sending an SMS/MMS
• Recharging
• Data usage
• Data, SMS, Voice and Airtime usage from promo wallet are all excluded

1.3 After 90 days dormancy (no revenue generating activities)
The MSISDN is no longer reported as active therefore MTN shall be entitled to cancel this MSISDN and deactivate your SIM card from the MTN network, in which case all the airtime credit on the cancelled MSISDN will be forfeited.

 

[airborne]

If the account is logged in somewhere else they send the authentication code there.

The only time it will send an SMS is if all sessions are logged out and you start a brand new session on a new device.

So now you get a number used on Telegram previously and still logged in...and you are up **** creek.

Only if you've added that email beforehand do you have a chance of using that to login, which is why I've recommended all Telegram users do exactly that and it was part of Telegram's flow to do this but it could be skipped as I recall.

Fallback options are there...once you are logged in. The problem here is being unable to login on a new number in the first place.

So if you have even one session which you have no access to that Telegram considers still logged in there's no way to recover your account unless you have an email added to the account and can use that to authenticate a new login?
How could a situation arise where Telegram things a session is still active even when it's not, surely they have an inactivity timer for devices, after say 4 weeks of no access the session is auto logged out and then you can request a sms?

But even if all sessions are logged out @Fulcrum29 says they now won't send recovery sms apart from when you first add a number to a new Telegram account?

 

[airborne]

As previously said, if you have a critical MTN prepaid number, just subscribe to the MTN Access4Life Xtender service. I was actually unaware of this service. Now all of my prepaid numbers are subscribed, just two though. If this fails, oh jinne.

For those not wanting to lose their MTN line for reasons...

From the way I read that they will only deduct the R5 every 90 days if there has been no billable activity, if you have done billable activity the 90 day timer restarts?

 

[Fulcrum29]

But going by that your sim should not have been deactivated, there's something else at play here, maybe a system glitch because you were doing revenue generating activity as defined by their T&Cs.

If you do not use your SIM cards on the MTN network at least once every 90 days (no revenue generating activities).MTN shall be entitled to cancel this MSISDN and deactivate your SIM card from the MTN network.

1.1 Newly provisioned MSISDNs are considered active on
• First recharge
• Receive and answer an incoming call
• Receive promo value adds on activation
1.2 Revenue Generating Activities
• Make a chargeable call
• Sending an SMS/MMS
• Recharging
• Data usage
• Data, SMS, Voice and Airtime usage from promo wallet are all excluded

1.3 After 90 days dormancy (no revenue generating activities)
The MSISDN is no longer reported as active therefore MTN shall be entitled to cancel this MSISDN and deactivate your SIM card from the MTN network, in which case all the airtime credit on the cancelled MSISDN will be forfeited.

Now you need to understand how irritated I was. I had that number for a very long time. I could only associate the disconnection with the date of my last chargeable call, but even that was not a perfect match.

They also couldn't explain what this meant in detail:

"This number was disconnected from the install base."

All I received was a repeat of it. Sometimes you just need to accept life.

I now have strict rules to ensure my two prepaid SIMs stay active by scheduling chargeable calls every 28 days, and subscribing to the extender service.

All I want now is to change my Telegram account's number to my new number, which seems impossible to do.

 

[Fulcrum29]

From the way I read that they will only deduct the R5 every 90 days if there has been no billable activity, if you have done billable activity the 90 day timer restarts?

Yeah, their Ts&Cs aren't clear on that. I assume that they will charge you the R5 anyway. For me, it is acceptable. I just don't ever want to lose a number again that I need to have.

 

[Fulcrum29]

So if you have even one session which you have no access to that Telegram considers still logged in there's no way to recover your account unless you have an email added to the account and can use that to authenticate a new login?
How could a situation arise where Telegram things a session is still active even when it's not, surely they have an inactivity timer for devices, after say 4 weeks of no access the session is auto logged out and then you can request a sms?

But even if all sessions are logged out @Fulcrum29 says they now won't send recovery sms apart from when you first add a number to a new Telegram account?

I am not going to test it, but I think if all of your sessions are terminated, then the account is in flux until its defined time by the user runs out due to inactivity. Then you should be able to use your phone number to register an account again.

That could be up to 24 months.

Yes, you can add new sessions if you have an email account attached to the Telegram account.

I think many accounts are squatted. Users get numbers to register a Telegram account, and then they discard the number.

 

[SauRoNZA]

So if you have even one session which you have no access to that Telegram considers still logged in there's no way to recover your account unless you have an email added to the account and can use that to authenticate a new login?
How could a situation arise where Telegram things a session is still active even when it's not, surely they have an inactivity timer for devices, after say 4 weeks of no access the session is auto logged out and then you can request a sms?

But even if all sessions are logged out @Fulcrum29 says they now won't send recovery sms apart from when you first add a number to a new Telegram account?

Default session timeout is 1 month yes, but I think in this case Fulcrum suspects they are keeping it active intentionally to abuse the account.

If all are logged out then it will send an SMS on the first login yes, unless there is an email address already attached which I guess some clever squatters would do intentionally.

Not about to sign out of all my devices to test.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Okay just tested by logging out all devices, but I'm afraid it's of no use to anyone else.

Because I have a password set it simply asked me to enter my password and logged back in.

If I say "forgot my password" it simply refers me to the email address.

 

[Fulcrum29]

Okay just tested by logging out all devices, but I'm afraid it's of no use to anyone else.

Because I have a password set it simply asked me to enter my password and logged back in.

If I say "forgot my password" it simply refers me to the email address.

It didn't ask for your phone number at any point in time. I guess if you don't have an email address configured, it will refer you to your phone number.

I just don't want to be in a position where someone with my old number is able to recover the account. Some people do say that it is possible. Yet, none of their solutions work. I am curious how the attack vectors work, speaking of people who had their accounts hijacked and their number changed via a malicious link.

If I could replicate such an attack on my own account, I could solve the issue myself. As bad as it sounds.

 

[SauRoNZA]

It didn't ask for your phone number at any point in time. I guess if you don't have an email address configured, it will refer you to your phone number.

I just don't want to be in a position where someone with my old number is able to recover the account. Some people do say that it is possible. Yet, none of their solutions work. I am curious how the attack vectors work, speaking of people who had their accounts hijacked and their number changed via a malicious link.

If I could replicate such an attack on my own account, I could solve the issue myself. As bad as it sounds.

Oh no it asks for your phone number on the very first step, I just figured that goes without saying.

But once I put it in then it just asked for my password.

All things considered I think if you attached an email address and bonus points for adding a password then there's very little chance of an attack vector angle.

 

[airborne]

I am not going to test it, but I think if all of your sessions are terminated, then the account is in flux until its defined time by the user runs out due to inactivity. Then you should be able to use your phone number to register an account again.

That could be up to 24 months.

Yes, you can add new sessions if you have an email account attached to the Telegram account.

I think many accounts are squatted. Users get numbers to register a Telegram account, and then they discard the number.

Can't you add an email using one of your current sessions and then use that going ahead or just the registered number and password to login to sessions going forward as @SauRoNZA mentioned?
I’m battling to understand what the issue is, have you forgotten the password for your account, what's preventing you from fully managing the account?

The new number is already in use, and it can only be authenticated via the Telegram app

What does that mean, the new number you got has already been previously registered with Telegram, what process is "authenticated via the telegram app" that is preventing you from adding the number to your existing Telegram account?

 

[Fulcrum29]

Can't you add an email using one of your current sessions and then use that going ahead or just the registered number and password to login to sessions going forward as @SauRoNZA mentioned?
I’m battling to understand what the issue is, have you forgotten the password for your account, what's preventing you from fully managing the account?

An email can only be used to authorise new sessions. I still have access to the account. What I can't do is to change the number that the account is attached to, neither can I broadcast that number to the people belonging to the groups (and channels).

What does that mean, the new number you got has already been previously registered with Telegram, what process is "authenticated via the telegram app" that is preventing you from adding the number to your existing Telegram account?

I can't change the phone number on my Telegram account to a number that is already in use by another account on Telegram. When I request the change, the account to which the number is attached to has to provide the authentication code.

I am being prevented by being unauthorised.

 

[kolaval]

Only scammers use Telegram.

Found a pic of you