There is an enemy out there

Yeah, true re autopsy. But again, sorry not being argumentative but wondering about those MRC stats, does the autopsy say murder or merely blunt force trauma (too much CSI! ha ha) gunshot etc. If you assumed every gunshot was murder you would have over exaggerated stats.

I doubt that an autopsy could reach a conclusion of murder just from a gunshot wound because it could easily be as a result of an accident or suicide. But somewhere along the line the SAPS stats, MRC stats and Home Affairs stats should correlate. However, Aids deaths stats are also misleading. Cause of death is often given as the final symptom like TB rather than the underlying cause of immune breakdown. Just wonder how much you can rely on any stats.
Lies, damned lies, and statistics - Benjamin Disraeli
Even accurate statistics can be used to bolster inaccurate arguments.
 
It was a question I asked!

But now you conclude that due to records existing of deaths in custody you assume that all black murders were accounted for accurately. Please educate me if you know but were all black births and deaths registered with home affairs? I recall many a labourer not knowing their official date of birth. Now if the deaths were not registered how did the cause of death in the homelands get accounted for? Or did those conveniently fall outside the borders of SA?

EDIT : This last question is true. The homelands were granted "independence" so therefore I assume the deaths/murders there conveniently did not form part of the stats for South Africa prior to 1994. You perhaps should also not assume things based on your prejudices. Mine was posed as a question, yours stated as a fact.
When you use the words "Surely not" after a question, you tend to have answered it already.

If certain people were unsure of their DOB or where they were born or anything else, then it's hardly the government's fault if their deaths are mis-recorded. There is a certain group that tries to blame the apartheid government for everything and anything. I'm sensible enough to admit that they weren't perfect, but they sure knew how to run things. The people running this country couldn't even run Robben Island they are so inept.:rolleyes:
 
When you use the words "Surely not" after a question, you tend to have answered it already.

If certain people were unsure of their DOB or where they were born or anything else, then it's hardly the government's fault if their deaths are mis-recorded. There is a certain group that tries to blame the apartheid government for everything and anything. I'm sensible enough to admit that they weren't perfect, but they sure knew how to run things. The people running this country couldn't even run Robben Island they are so inept.:rolleyes:

Hmm, now that post does a little more then just verges on being racist.... you need to learn that using the term "certain people" does not deflect attention from what you are implying. Just the implication that the NP knew how to run a country when their manner of doing so involved suppressing the majority of people should get you an infraction. Times were oh so good back then weren't they? :rolleyes: (my turn to roll my eyes at you!)

I see you also chose to ignore the fact that deaths/murders within the homelands would also have been omitted from the stats making any comparisons meaningless.
 
Dammit why don't you just admit that you are not willing to see anything other than your own truth?
 
There is an enemy within

Um, I do not see much moaning in that post... merely a correction of most of the untruths recently put forward as fact and accepted gleefully by the likes of yourself...

And you want to pass this off as useful "fact"
they are bringing in almost two families in for every one family they are taking out.

Yeah, two or maybe more Zim families to each one leaving for abroad.

We didn't expect them to disclose the profile of these inbound families , now did we!


I guess you also believe the STATS that show a decline in the crime rate.


Can't sell your house?
 
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Claim:Our capability to attract foreign skills is in fact the lowest in the world.
I disagree with that claim, somewhere like Zim would be even lower. But thats not to say we attract foreign skilled people. With BEE and government corruption awarding jobs to a select few companies, there are a few skill types interested in coming to SA. Also, the number of people coming to SA say nothing about their skills. A huge problem with SA is that the important skills are leaving the country. Eskom is a fine example of it. With the load shedding, construction companies now have their hands tied to when and what they can build. It's losing money. Overseas are actually offering free citizenship to such skills. It's far to tempting to leave a non-profit situation to a profitable one.

The quality of our education is not only low, in many instances it is the lowest in the world… literacy rates of grade 4 pupils indicates South Africa is among the worst in the world.
I agree with this statement. The problem is not the literacy rate of grade 4, it's the literacy rate of an 18 year old. It's becoming increasingly popular to drop out of school.

A quarter of South Africa's population lives on grants - the highest in the world. And this massive spending without saving fuels inflation.

Can't constructively comment on this because I know nothing on the topic

All of the analysts in London we spoke to are convinced that we are under-selling ourselves. They all agree South Africans overseas and here have reason to be much more upbeat about the country and the economy.

They of course don't sit through 4 hour power cuts. It's completely silly for a analyst in london to comment on the moral standings of SA. Sure, to them R9 a lt of petrol is cheap, but here is SA we earn alot less than them. When your petrol costs go up by over R500 in 4 months, moral takes hit. On a side note, he's right that we *should* be more upbeat to encourage people to come here but thats the only reason.

In South Africa the rich have become richer and the poor poorer.

I agree 100%, the resent interest hikes show this. The cost of a house has to come down or else no-one will by because the interest will kill them. Houses drop so that they become affordable to someone on a loan, but those very rich people who dont need loans can now buy that house (coz it's cheaper) in 1 payment, then rent it out. Asset values and rent increase his wealth. BEE also is a "rich get richer". This is a global problem.
"while the incomes of the poor have risen slower than the incomes of the rich"
Buy the poor are exploited. Example, chicken at the shop costs R30, but in the poor areas they sell for R45, why? because the taxi fair to the shop and back is R24 now, it's cheaper to buy the overpriced chicken. Also, the incomes of the rich are less than those of the poor, well, thats because the rich dont need more "income", they need more "investment", i'm sure if took asset values into the equations, you'd find the richer people have doubled their net worth. Income means nothing to the rich womans world.

Our HIV/Aids infection rate is the highest in the world.
I'm not sure on this, getting stats on aids rates is a hard thing to do, do you REALLY believe the CIA about the stats on Zim? I dont.
"China have just overtaken South Africa’s number of HIV positive people"
Thats no surprise, considering that chinas has more population. You need a per capita for a better comparison.

Our crime is the worst in the world.
There is no doubt its very high here. A big issue I have with these stats is that the police are the criminals. Taking bribes, "losing" case files. Also SA lying about it's crime rates, our government has long denied there being crime, while it happens all around us. South african stats on crime is lower than is really is in my opinion.

South African schools are the most dangerous in the world.
I disagree with this as well.

South Africa’s abortion rate amongst the highest in the world.
The comment on this is misleading. "The Star reported this week that 50% of pregnancies end up in abortion" is obviously way to high, this doesn't mean we have the lowest rate. Fact is that SA is very relaxed on it's abortion rules as well as easy going for illegal abortions, or abortions by traditional healers. This all contributes that SA has a high abortion rate. But this topic isnt a SA issue is it? it's purely a topical human rights issue case per case, says nothing about SA other than there is a lot of unprotected sex going on.

So don’t believe everything you read, you may end up making the wrong choices. Take the enemy on – demand the truth!
which includes that article itself. But how do you know the truth? Arms deals, disbanding the scorpions, corruption trials demanding certain papers not be used. Government says there is no crime yet your priest was shot and killed a month ago for no reason.

How do I see it? SA is in a worse state than 10 years ago. Compare SA to SA and you find that it's falling short of it's best and keeps on dropping. There is hope though, 2010. Tons of money is spent on 2010, huge debt. But then after 2010? Personally I believe 2010 will make or break SA.
 
Again, that is the point of this thread really that people will always dispute statistics and facts if they do not support their beliefs.
Clearly that shows then that statistics are generally irrelevant when shown here? Effectively all you've been doing is trying to debunk the negative opinions of South Africans by trying to enforce your rather skewed opinion upon them?

South Africa may not appear to have the worst problems or the worst rates of crime/HIV/bad education/corruption, etc when looking at individual statistics on paper. BUT, when all these factors are combined, South Africa's problems as a whole (and let's face it, we don't live in an isolated world where we only encounter one problem at a time, do we?) are pretty substantial and quite frankly tough on the citizens living here (and pretty darn close to a combined worse in the world on many fronts). When looking at these things in a singular way (as you and all these people who so conveniently quoted here continually try to do), then they won't appear the worst. But when combine the problems (as they are in real terms), then suddenly you discover South Africa actually can subscribe to a "worst of... " condition. Example: "South Africa has amongst the highest HIV infection rates AND one of the highest incidents of rape AND one of the highest murder rates AND one of the most expensive Telecoms services AND one of the worst violent crime rates inside peoples' homes AND amongst the worse company service records AND amongst the worst unemployment rates in the world , ETC... Then given all that, things are not so rosy like you wish to portray it, is it?

I think the newsletter you quoted in your OP is noble, but fails on several points (some of which has been pointed out already) but most notably that when taking the entire situation in this country as a whole, no amount of misreporting (intentional or otherwise) is going to change the fact that right now South Africa is not living up to it's potential. It's not even close.
One does wonder how the Medical Research Council would have more accurate figures than the SAPS?
They collect statistics from doctors and pathologists
What would their figures be based on? And Home Affairs? Surely they just register deaths?
Because by law they are required to record the cause of death in every event.

Anyway, I look forward to how you flip-flop between debunking other poster's statistics while relying that your own sources are perfectly accurate. I suggest you stop playing the statistics game in this way. It's poor form and entirely irrelevant. As for being positive, good for you. I try to remain as positive as I can as well. So 10 points for effort, just zero for delivery.
 
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This quote applies to Lancealot and all those Proudly South Africans: (from the Saturday Argus letters page)

[I'd] rather be a negative whinger than a coward in denial, afraid to speak the truth.
 
Can I point out that Steuart Pennington has not only made a business out of 'SA "good news" -
he's been endorsed repeatedly, by Thabo Mbeki himself. Something he and his fellow 'good news'
lecture tour speakers are waving around to sell themselves with.

ANC TODAY – 25 March 2005 “Letter from the President”
http://www.guylundy.com/news/Letter from the President.pdf

Here's a pic of the guy, amidst selling himself as being available as a
public speaker on the 'good news' lecture circuit.
http://www.conferencespeakers.co.za/speakers/steuartpennington.htm

You're quoting a fairly arbitrary opportunistic type of guy who's made and is making
money from selling the 'positive' side of SA - and who's also been used as an ANC mouthpiece...

Hardly an objective thinker - given that for some years, his profits seem to come from
trying to persuade people that the outlook for SA, and its future - is wonderful.

No wonder the ANC took the time to lick his b3lls.

Look at how he sells himself..
http://www.meetingsafrica.co.za/pages/Content.asp?SectionID=1191
"STEUART PENNINGTON

Steuart is co-editor and publisher of “SOUTH AFRICA – The Good News”...

With 28 500 copies sold since January 2003 these books have come to play an invaluable part
in promoting South Africa both locally and abroad, and have been acknowledged on 5 separate
occasions by President Thabo Mbeki in his weekly newsletter. The INDEPENDENT research involved in
compiling these books has resulted in some 250 public talks both here and abroad, 65 productions of
Industrial Theatre, and significant sales of pocketbooks and videos. "


Note the capital letters used on "independent". Very tacky. Sounds like someone wants to make sure that they
appear to be seen as 'independent' - and not just a money grabbing puppet of the ANC's PR campaigns..

which is perhaps exactly what he is.
 
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LoneGunman, thanks for exposing him as a fraud. He's already sucked in one person that has ended in nasty person attacks if his side of the story isn't agreed upon.
 
Can I point out that Steuart Pennington has not only made a business out of 'SA "good news" -
he's been endorsed repeatedly, by Thabo Mbeki himself. Something he and his fellow 'good news'
lecture tour speakers are waving around to sell themselves with.

ANC TODAY – 25 March 2005 “Letter from the President”
http://www.guylundy.com/news/Letter from the President.pdf

Here's a pic of the guy, amidst selling himself as being available as a
public speaker on the 'good news' lecture circuit.
http://www.conferencespeakers.co.za/speakers/steuartpennington.htm

You're quoting a fairly arbitrary opportunistic type of guy who's made and is making
money from selling the 'positive' side of SA - and who's also been used as an ANC mouthpiece...

Hardly an objective thinker - given that for some years, his profits seem to come from
trying to persuade people that the outlook for SA, and its future - is wonderful.

No wonder the ANC took the time to lick his b3lls.

Look at how he sells himself..
http://www.meetingsafrica.co.za/pages/Content.asp?SectionID=1191
"STEUART PENNINGTON

Steuart is co-editor and publisher of “SOUTH AFRICA – The Good News”...

With 28 500 copies sold since January 2003 these books have come to play an invaluable part
in promoting South Africa both locally and abroad, and have been acknowledged on 5 separate
occasions by President Thabo Mbeki in his weekly newsletter. The INDEPENDENT research involved in
compiling these books has resulted in some 250 public talks both here and abroad, 65 productions of
Industrial Theatre, and significant sales of pocketbooks and videos. "


Note the capital letters used on "independent". Very tacky. Sounds like someone wants to make sure that they
appear to be seen as 'independent' - and not just a money grabbing puppet of the ANC's PR campaigns..

which is perhaps exactly what he is.

Thank you its about time someone finally proved that this guy is as reliable as a life support machine that's powered by Eskom
 
Hmm, now that post does a little more then just verges on being racist.... you need to learn that using the term "certain people" does not deflect attention from what you are implying. Just the implication that the NP knew how to run a country when their manner of doing so involved suppressing the majority of people should get you an infraction. Times were oh so good back then weren't they? :rolleyes: (my turn to roll my eyes at you!)

I see you also chose to ignore the fact that deaths/murders within the homelands would also have been omitted from the stats making any comparisons meaningless.
Actually, I said a "certain group". If you're repeatedly going to play the race card, then at least get your quotes correct.

You also neglect to see where I say the previous government "weren't perfect". It's very possible to say they ran certain things better. Black people are on record as saying the same - or even more. I guess they are racist too, right ??

[Oh and please cut out the personal stuff or you won't last long here .. another rolleyes for u :rolleyes:]
 
For evil to succeed all that is needed is for good men to do nothing but b_tch about anything possible on a public forum!

Your assumption is that I am doing nothing just because I take offense to people unnecessarily bashing this country?

Hey, I of all people am all for facts, just don't distort them.

Yep - he said he was going to sort out some more blue flags, and after a minor setback of immediately losing 4, I am sure that he'll focus his energy on that venture.

At least that will be positive.
 
But now you conclude that due to records existing of deaths in custody you assume that all black murders were accounted for accurately. Please educate me if you know but were all black births and deaths registered with home affairs? I recall many a labourer not knowing their official date of birth. Now if the deaths were not registered how did the cause of death in the homelands get accounted for? Or did those conveniently fall outside the borders of SA?

The government does not send you a birthday card every year, so if you, or your family (for whatever tragic reason) forgets when you were born you can't blame Home Affairs. Yes, the intention was to register every person born and to take the finger prints of blacks - because, as you know, they wanted to murder us in our beds.

And, yes, there were quite a few illegals without papers.

But do you really want to compare stats from way back then?
 
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