There is an enemy out there

Ozymandias said:
I think that one thing that you can't hide that easily, is a body. The Medical Research Council would supposedly have stats of all bodies that have come to the hospitals due to murder. The Home Affairs department has to give the cause of death on the death certificates.
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I am not questioning that they receive bodies. I do question the fact that they have a tag on them saying murder... if it had cause of death surely it would say gunshot wound and not murder for example?
 
Linoman said:
It's people who turn a blind eye to everything that let the world turn into a mess that it is..
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AGAIN please read my posts. I have never denied that we have a crime problem and that we have problems that need sorting. I have a problem with the misrepresenting of facts to skew the truth... like things have got so much worse recently as regards crime when it hasn't!
 
LancelotSA said:
I am not questioning that they receive bodies. I do question the fact that they have a tag on them saying murder... if it had cause of death surely it would say gunshot wound and not murder for example?
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Gun shot wound cause by someone else is called murder
 
LancelotSA said:
AGAIN please read my posts. I have never denied that we have a crime problem and that we have problems that need sorting. I have a problem with the misrepresenting of facts to skew the truth... like things have got so much worse recently as regards crime when it hasn't!
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And AGAIN I am going to say to you, thats EXACTLY what you are doing
 
LancelotSA said:
I am not questioning that they receive bodies. I do question the fact that they have a tag on them saying murder... if it had cause of death surely it would say gunshot wound and not murder for example?
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Maybe that is what the tag does say. Gunshot wound, stab wound, strangulation or whatever.
 
LancelotSA said:
Ha ha ha! O.......KAY !:rolleyes:

PS Your posts are k@k to me.... one man's meat is another man's poison. You should apply for a mod job seeing as though you seem to like acting like one.
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... Ha ha ha! O ...... KAY what? At the Addington comment? You said yourself that you never went there, so how do you know? And the fact is, it was a world class hospital comapred to now. I'm glad that my posts are k@k to you ... but taking an unsubstantiated stab at the mods here might be a very bad move no?


hj2k_x said:
Well if you don't believe the facts, then what else remains?
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... come on bru, surely you can't be condoning his personal attacks? :(
 
Linoman said:
And AGAIN I am going to say to you, thats EXACTLY what you are doing
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Ha ha where have I misrepresented the facts? In fact in one post I used your very figures to make my point! Well actually they corroborated what I had said. Ha ha seriously now Linoman
 
LancelotSA said:
Ha ha where have I misrepresented the facts? In fact in one post I used your very figures to make my point! Well actually they corroborated what I had said. Ha ha seriously now Linoman
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Haha now seriously you didn't bother to read them all I see.... If you don't read the news reports
 
Ozymandias said:
Maybe that is what the tag does say. Gunshot wound, stab wound, strangulation or whatever.
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Yeah but then you could not immediately assume murder? Anyway I had a read through your report and what you also have to seriously question are the stats prior to 1994. Do your reckon the apartheid government used to worry about how a black person died? Surely not. Probably wasn't even known to anyone other than the family.
 
LancelotSA said:
Yeah but then you could not immediately assume murder? Anyway I had a read through your report and what you also have to seriously question are the stats prior to 1994. Do your reckon the apartheid government used to worry about how a black person died? Surely not. Probably wasn't even known to anyone other than the family.
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People shooting other people isn't murder?
 
Linoman said:
Haha now seriously you didn't bother to read them all I see.... If you don't read the news reports
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Hearing that someone got murdered on the news also does not confirm nor deny the point of whether crime has substantially increased in recent times.... however if you are listening at it wanting to hear that things are so much worse, then guess what you are going to hear?
 
LancelotSA said:
Hearing that someone got murdered on the news also does not confirm nor deny the point of whether crime has substantially increased in recent times.... however if you are listening at it wanting to hear that things are so much worse, then guess what you are going to hear?
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Ignoring the fact that its happening doesn't change the fact its going on does it>?
 
Linoman said:
People shooting other people isn't murder?
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Linoman, please! Read all the posts otherwise you are going to get ignored and will have to talk to yourself. That response was about something specific as you would have (well should have) seen from the quoted text above it!
 
LancelotSA said:
Linoman, please! Read all the posts otherwise you are going to get ignored and will have to talk to yourself. That response was about something specific as you would have (well should have) seen from the quoted text above it!
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I have re read the posts, I am talking in general
 
LancelotSA said:
Yeah but then you could not immediately assume murder? Anyway I had a read through your report and what you also have to seriously question are the stats prior to 1994. Do your reckon the apartheid government used to worry about how a black person died? Surely not. Probably wasn't even known to anyone other than the family.
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Well I wouldn't need to assume murder. If the autopsy findings said murder then it would be recorded as such. No, I doubt that the Apartheid government did care about the means of death of non-whites.
 
Ozymandias said:
Well I wouldn't need to assume murder. If the autopsy findings said murder then it would be recorded as such. No, I doubt that the Apartheid government did care about the means of death of non-whites.
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Yeah, true re autopsy. But again, sorry not being argumentative but wondering about those MRC stats, does the autopsy say murder or merely blunt force trauma (too much CSI! ha ha) gunshot etc. If you assumed every gunshot was murder you would have over exaggerated stats.

Our agreement on the apartheid government stats does show however how these discussions of increased crime do not have much basis really. Recent stats show a decrease, well according to the SAPS they do whereas the other sources I have seen do not show a trend but once off figures, and older stats are obviously very inaccurate as they only account for a tiny proportion of the population.
 
LancelotSA said:
Yeah but then you could not immediately assume murder? Anyway I had a read through your report and what you also have to seriously question are the stats prior to 1994. Do your reckon the apartheid government used to worry about how a black person died? Surely not. Probably wasn't even known to anyone other than the family.
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As far as I can recollect, the government were concerned about all deaths, even those in custody. If you'll remember the elaborate excuses for those who were beaten or killed themselves. The TRC were given quite meticulous records. So unless you have some other source or proof you cannot generalise. I know that when black people murdered each other the sentences reflected hardships in the townships and judges were lenient. Rape, however was treated far more seriously. It was a different era and one cannot just assume things based on your own prejudices.
 
Skeptik said:
As far as I can recollect, the government were concerned about all deaths, even those in custody. If you'll remember the elaborate excuses for those who were beaten or killed themselves. The TRC were given quite meticulous records. So unless you have some other source or proof you cannot generalise. I know that when black people murdered each other the sentences reflected hardships in the townships and judges were lenient. Rape, however was treated far more seriously. It was a different era and one cannot just assume things based on your own prejudices.
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It was a question I asked!

But now you conclude that due to records existing of deaths in custody you assume that all black murders were accounted for accurately. Please educate me if you know but were all black births and deaths registered with home affairs? I recall many a labourer not knowing their official date of birth. Now if the deaths were not registered how did the cause of death in the homelands get accounted for? Or did those conveniently fall outside the borders of SA?

EDIT : This last question is true. The homelands were granted "independence" so therefore I assume the deaths/murders there conveniently did not form part of the stats for South Africa prior to 1994. You perhaps should also not assume things based on your prejudices. Mine was posed as a question, yours stated as a fact.
 
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