There is an enemy out there

*sigh*

Let me entertain you..

Actually I wont =)
 
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http://www.newsweek.com/id/80811

Artricle for Lancelot

a senior strategist named Joel Netsh#tenzhe delivered a blistering assessment of the state of his country. In a confidential document, Netsh%tenzhe warned that crime had become a "scourge," HIV was exacting a "devastating" toll, income equality was worsening and millions of South Africans remained mired in poverty.
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Many South Africans have started to feel that their country—recently an exemplar of democracy and enlightened leadership--is gradually tilting in the wrong direction. During the 1990s, the nation's AIDS epidemic was serious but no worse than that suffered by much of Africa. The same for violent crime. Today the AIDS crisis—which kills upwards of 900 South Africans a day—has become one of the world's worst. And crime is so bad that South Africa is starting to resemble Sierra Leone or Colombia. In fact, the country suffered more violent deaths per capita in 2007 than Afghanistan—the supposed front line in the war on terror.
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Despite economic growth, income inequality among blacks, especially, is getting worse. So is corruption.
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the generation that led it from prison cells on Robben Island and exile in Zambia and England--are slowly disappearing. Inspirational figures such as Nelson Mandela and Mac Maharaj have retired, while others, like Walter Sisulu and Oliver Tambo, have died. "It is a massive change," says Gumede. "There is real panic inside the ANC about what is happening in the party and in South Africa."
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Between 1975 and 2005, wealth disparities nearly doubled. The economic divide between whites and blacks has narrowed, and "within the black community, there is a group that is better off than during apartheid," says economist Jac Laubscher. "But there is an even larger group that's worse off than before."
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Food for thought

Should they commit to turning the country around, South Africa has huge advantages over its neighbors, such as an educated population, a relatively good infrastructure and clear civilian control of the military.
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http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

Sobering statistics.

More people are killed with firearms in SA then in Colombia. That Is Bull ****!

Rapes per Capita: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita
We win.... er... lose.

Crimes per Capita: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita
Awesome! We're only 10th.

Murders per Capita: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
2nd

Burglaries per Capita:http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita
10th which is interesting because it shows that our high amount of murders cannot just be shrugged off as failed burglaries.

Assaults per Capita: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita
We win again.

When it comes to crimes that involve violence we're way up there.
 
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Ok, now all you have really done there is take each point made and give your personal view on the matter. I could just as easily do that too, but no, I have rather used some "facts" used by someone who has clearly spent more time than the two of us researching the topic.

The same way you entertained me, I will humour you by adding my comments in bold in your post...

Pixie22 said:
*sigh*

Let me entertain you..

Claim:Our capability to attract foreign skills is in fact the lowest in the world.
We are a tourist destination. Most people coming from Britain will change their mind soon enough. They will realise the wealth of their own country in comparrison. Goodbye to free healthcare, hello wealthcare, goodbye football hooligans and bratts, hello murderers and serial rapists. Goodbye transport system, hello to traffic, taxis, road rage, out of order traffic lights and potholes. Goodbye rain, hello sun (thats a good one). Goodbye qualifications and equality, hello BEE, AA.

Moving on to personal views and experiences I know of six English people, three Swedes, two Dutch people who have made South Africa their home. Now the length of time here differs from 38 years for one Englishman down to two and a half years for someone from Holland. Clearly something other than your list of cons has kept them here. PS And I by no means know hundreds of people nor am I involved in immigration/tourism or whatever, so these people are in our group of friends

150th in the world in respect of literacy (out of 230 countries)
Respect OF literacy???
Brazil, Bolivia, Malaysia and Turkey are hardly what I'd call success stories either. Couldn't point out half of those on a map lol You also have to take into account that the white people and other foreigners of this country push the rest of the country up to par with Bolivia.

Aha so now you admit that a lot of "skilled" foreigners do stay here. But you are missing the point. I did not say we are number one, however the initial report which is being questioned said we have the worst. The worst means last, not 150th. 229th would still not be worst.

A quarter of South Africa's population lives on grants - the highest in the world. And this massive spending without saving fuels inflation.
The more pressing matter is how pathetically small the grants are. How many chappies can a person buy? Also woman having babies just so they can get such a small amount of money is disgusting. The system is very easy to abuse. Im still surprised that people use it though. For such a small amount of money? Im not gonna sell my pride.

Again irrelevant and argumentative. Tell the person getting R300/R400/R500 per month that you are taking that away. It may mean nothing to you but to them it means something. Besides the point of this was that these figures are used to show how dependent on the state people are but it was pointed out that a number of these are children and pensioners who cannot work!

All of the analysts in London we spoke to are convinced that we are under-selling ourselves. They all agree South Africans overseas and here have reason to be much more upbeat about the country and the economy.
Coming from their extensive experience with living in our country? Hard to stay positive when you are faced with 4 years of loadshedding and your government is about as corrupt as a hug salesman in retard town.

I assume you meant four hours? And again not much else to argue here as the rest is speculation and a little cruel to people with mental disabilities

In South Africa the rich have become richer and the poor poorer.
Doubt that, but they are certainly taking their time to even things out. Too busy filling their own pockets

Again no point made here other than to speculate

Our HIV/Aids infection rate is the highest in the world.
12%? Not a chance its that low.. hahaha
Im thinking 25% atleast.
I dont think the poorest of the poor get tested. I actually think they'd rather live with it and not know about it.
All AIDS stats are based on actuarial "guesses" using samples of the population. The richest of the rich do not get tested either. Are you aware of the fact that getting tested is a voluntary thing and not forced on you by the government? You could just as easily have said 50% and laughed. Pointless.

Our crime is the worst in the world.
Death statistics equivalent to a civil war. Our gun deaths dwarf the US in percentage yet guns are near impossible to get legally here, and in the US you can machine guns before you have stopped sucking your mommies tit. We are the rape capital of the world. You forgot to mention. Dunno anywhere else where its so popular to gangrape babies to death. Everyone here have been victims of crime. Most also violent crime. Good luck finding a country that isn't in civil war where people can say the same thing.
Sensationalism here given away by these lines "before you have stopped sucking your mommies tit" and "gangrape babies to death". And you make the exact accusation we have been chatting about all along by saying "everyone here have been victims of crime", now we know that is a blatant lie!

Poverty has doubled in the past ten years.
doubt it. If it does go up, its because of immigrants entering the country because of false promises about this place and its opportunities, and the government letting it happen ofcourse.

Not sure what your argument here is? I think you misunderstand the word poverty as you seem to be arguing my point here

South African schools are the most dangerous in the world.
haha dont compare us to the UK, USA and France. We couldn't touch them with a barge pole.. In their countries bullying is mental, perhaps sometimes people get slapped. Yes we are not as scared as everyone else. cause we are desensitized into accepting these things as "normal"

Huh? The South African Institute of Race Relations used the survey to make their point, the writer pointed out that the facts were skewed to suit their needs. Mental bullying is the worst kind of bullying leading to feelings of inferiority. And believe me they do not only bully each other mentally in the UK, they threaten teaches with knives in public schools and spit at bus drivers (seen first hand)

South Africa’s abortion rate amongst the highest in the world.
I wish.. Poor people dunno how to stop fkn
Bet you would have sex as often if you could

Our Social Welfare System supports 12.3 million people and will create unhealthy dependency.
There are alot of people all too happy to stay on grants. More than likely the same lazy sobs that prefer standing at robots than doing something that requires brain power and would add to the economy. Those people have nothing to complain about at all, because they are leeches and they contribute nothing. I have already mentioned woman having babies for the grant. Thats another thing that needs to be sorted out. Perhaps steralization for mothers who are on the grant. If you are having babies for your own financial benefit then you are not the kind of person I want having babies. Now go home and look after your damn kid before he robs me in ten years..

Do you know that you have got worse as you post has gone on? Most of these people would love a job. They would be grateful to work. You are mad! Your constant references to "these people" also smells a little of racism. Who are "these people" you refer to?
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Okay, got you Lancelot, the media sometimes paints a dismal picture, by using "emotive words" and not fully exploring the facts.

These things drive media sales, and thats why its done. We should all be more careful and make our own minds up regarding everything we read and hear.

We can all now stop posting stats/facts/articles that contradict those as reported by LanceLot - its not the point of the thread.
 
LancelotSA said:
Ok, now all you have really done there is take each point made and give your personal view on the matter. I could just as easily do that too, but no, I have rather used some "facts" used by someone who has clearly spent more time than the two of us researching the topic.

The same way you entertained me, I will humour you by adding my comments in bold in your post...
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Pixxie just needs some happy pills mate (he has run out) or a joint to smoke, don't mind him, he cracks me up all the time!
 
catweasel said:
Okay, got you Lancelot, the media sometimes paints a dismal picture, by using "emotive words" and not fully exploring the facts.

These things drive media sales, and thats why its done. We should all be more careful and make our own minds up regarding everything we read and hear.

We can all now stop posting stats/facts/articles that contradict those as reported by LanceLot - its not the point of the thread.
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Ha ha thanks catweasel you seem to be the only one who has got it! :)

We could go on all day posting contradictory links, saying the exact opposite things and that is the point. We must not all be led like sheep to the slaughter and get so despondent everytime we read an article or news story.

Funny to look back and a year or so ago every news broadcast was how good things were in SA, interest rates way down, inflation between 3 and 6%, proudly South African and all that stuff and now a year later we have the exact opposite.

And in both instances the media and conversations around the braai drive the mood! It's mad! Please bring on next year so the mood can swing!
 
You've got some very valid points there, notably the AIDS and under-selling one.

Some of them deserve criticism though:

In the point about 25% grants=inflation, he is countering a macro-economic argument (Gov. spending fuels inflation) with a compassion based one (Children deserve clothing etc). Both points of view are valid and neither is "selective distortion"

South Africa ranks +/- 150th in the world in respect of literacy (out of 230 countries) and that our literacy levels are on a par with countries like Brazil, Bolivia, Malaysia and Turkey.
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Take a look at the list on wiki(United Nations Development Programme Report 2007/2008). Notice that we are ranked *below* all those countries listed as "on par"...in the case of Brazil 17 places below. We're also below Congo & Libya. Certainly not "lowest", but thats pretty bloody awful whichever way you cut it.

The two poverty/income gap point have some technical flaws:
1) GDP per capita is meaningless when measuring income gap.
2) GDP per capita is meaningless when measuring poverty in a country with a large income gap. Not too sure whether this should be blamed on "intentional deception" or just insufficient knowledge.
3) The accepted measure of income disparity is the GINI coefficient. By this measure inequality has increased. And SA ranks in the top five most unequal countries on the UN list. (Too lazy to count them)

On the whole it strikes me as a well-meant but not too accurate article.

So don’t believe everything you read
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Indeed. Especially if its a bunch of stats without a single source to back it up.:rolleyes:
 
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HavocXphere said:
You've got some very valid points there, notably the AIDS and under-selling one.

Some of them deserve criticism though:

In the point about 25% grants=inflation, he is countering a macro-economic argument (Gov. spending fuels inflation) with a compassion based one (Children deserve clothing etc). Both points of view are valid and neither is "selective distortion"


Take a look at the list on wiki(United Nations Development Programme Report 2007/2008). Notice that we are ranked *below* all those countries listed as "on par"...in the case of Brazil 17 places below. We're also below Congo & Libya. Certainly not "lowest", but thats pretty bloody awful whichever way you cut it.

The two poverty/income gap point have some technical flaws:
1) GDP per capita is meaningless when measuring income gap.
2) GDP per capita is meaningless when measuring poverty in a country with a large income gap. Not too sure whether this should be blamed on "intentional deception" or just insufficient knowledge.
3) The accepted measure of income disparity is the GINI coefficient. By this measure inequality has increased. And SA ranks in the top five most unequal countries on the UN list. (Too lazy to count them)

On the whole it strikes me as a well-meant but not too accurate article.


Indeed. Especially if its a bunch of stats without a single source to back it up.:rolleyes:
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Your post again shows that figures can be manipulated to say what you want them to but again I think we can conclude from the figures posted by you that we are by no means the "worst, highest, or least" as is often pointed out.

Yes, many things need improving but do not distort the facts to suit your needs. This is what gets my back up :)

PS : I had checked out that wiki link already and was going to use it against another poster on here but felt the backwards and forwards posting of links is not proving anything. Although I will take a cheap shot and say we are listed as 120th on a list of 177 (some obviously missing) which is certainly not the lowest!
 
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Your post again shows that figures can be manipulated to say what you want them to
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Manipulated? My figures are far more relevant (GDP vs Gini), more accurate (UN vs CIA factbook) and better supported (Sources).

I'd conclude the figures in the OP are "manipulated to say what you want them to"....but if you want to take the view that both are manipulated then that's also fine by me.
 
HavocXphere said:
Manipulated? My figures are far more relevant (GDP vs Gini), more accurate (UN vs CIA factbook) and better supported (Sources).

I'd conclude the figures in the OP are "manipulated to say what you want them to"....but if you want to take the view that both are manipulated then that's also fine by me.
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I hate it when people misinterpret your posts due to tone being lost. That is the problem with the written word, more than half of the human communication skills are removed. I was not arguing with you but was showing that we can all quote stats from various sources which say what we want them too.
 
How many times have LancelotSA and I debated over being positive. Even a thread of mine was derailed for this sake. Do you realize that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and its no ones right to force it down someone else's throat.

With the way things are moving in South Africa, lots of people are sick and tired of being mindless zombies who believe all the propaganda the government is telling them. If you can't accept that then move on
 
Linoman said:
With the way things are moving in South Africa, lots of people are sick and tired of being mindless zombies who believe all the propaganda the government is telling them. If you can't accept that then move on
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not my kind of thread but wanted to say
1. good for you to the OP - i for one appreciate what you are doing here (against the odds)
2. if people could be either positive or negative but not mindless about it that would be a great start

it is as easy and as pointless to be positive without thinking as to be negative without thinking...the thinking is the important bit
 
Linoman said:
How many times have LancelotSA and I debated over being positive. Even a thread of mine was derailed for this sake. Do you realize that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and its no ones right to force it down someone else's throat.

With the way things are moving in South Africa, lots of people are sick and tired of being mindless zombies who believe all the propaganda the government is telling them. If you can't accept that then move on
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Linoman, I do not get the relevance of your post to this thread. The point of this thread was to show how all these news reports that get posted on here daily, in fact hourly, need to have there motives and sources questioned and not just believed and run with. I was not being positive per se but was posting an article I read which I found interesting as it questioned things.

Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is weird how you only bring this up now when I try to get my opinion across... threads like this are very few and far between on this forum so I do not think this opinion is being forced down your throat.
 
LancelotSA said:
Linoman, I do not get the relevance of your post to this thread. The point of this thread was to show how all these news reports that get posted on here daily, in fact hourly, need to have there motives and sources questioned and not just believed and run with. I was not being positive per se but was posting an article I read which I found interesting.

Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is weird how you only bring this up now when I try to get my opinion across... threads like this are very few and far between on this forum so I do not think this opinion is being forced down your throat.
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What is being forced down my throat and others is your constant criticizem of people who look at the current situation of South Africa differently than you do.
 
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