US politics general thread

[The_Assimilator]

Which people?

Ignore them, they're just trying to derail the thread with whataboutism because their specious "socialism is communism waaah" "arguments" have been right called out as BS and they have no way to actually debate against the facts as laid out.

 

[Unhappy1]

LGBT propagandists. The US west coast is going to get gay men like myself killed before I reach old age.

Whilst im by no means a fan of theirs i think you are being overly dramatic, their stupidity will hardly register on your life in South Africa.

 

[The_Assimilator]

How is it that you so easily ignore personal motivation? A bureaucrat has zero motivation to do his job. A government contractor has negative motivation to do his job.

Ah yes, because in your magical world, nobody who works for the government has any motivation ever. What about your hero Trump?

 

[cerebus]

Ignore them, they're just trying to derail the thread with whataboutism because their specious "socialism is communism waaah" "arguments" have been right called out as BS and they have no way to actually debate against the facts as laid out.

And because when you prod a bit closer into what they actually believe it turns out they've been freebasing Dave Rubin's crack pipe.

 

[rietrot]

How does this nebulous entity "the market" provide services more efficiently than a government - which is essentially the largest entity we have, and is thus capable of exerting massive pressure to get the best for its people?

And we're in some alternative reality lala land.

 

[Garson007]

Ah yes, because in [-]your magical world[/-] the real world, nobody who works for the government has any motivation ever.

Ftfy.

 

[konfab]

How does this nebulous entity "the market" provide services more efficiently than a government - which is essentially the largest entity we have, and is thus capable of exerting massive pressure to get the best for its people?

If you want to have this debate, you do need to define what exactly is counts as "efficient" and what counts as "best". And tbh, I think it would be far more interesting if we put this in a new thread.

What do you think?

 

[scudsucker]

And we're in some alternative reality lala land.

You are, that's for sure.

Your wingmen, Garson007 & NBFTW, are right there behind you.

At least Konfab is able to debate - not that I agree with him - but he's able to produce and defend a cogent argument.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

How does this nebulous entity "the market" provide services more efficiently than a government - which is essentially the largest entity we have, and is thus capable of exerting massive pressure to get the best for its people?

A couple of local examples will surely do yes?

- SAPO vs any local courier company
- SAA vs BA
- RAF vs 3rd party insurance
- state pension vs private pension
- public healthcare vs private healthcare
- public schooling vs private schooling
- Telkom vs independent fiber

"the market" simply bitch slaps anything the government touches in South Africa, the differences may be less pronounced in other countries, but the same principles would apply

 

[cerebus]

A couple of local examples will surely do yes?

- SAPO vs any local courier company
- SAA vs BA
- RAF vs 3rd party insurance
- state pension vs private pension
- public healthcare vs private healthcare
- public schooling vs private schooling
- Telkom vs independent fiber

"the market" simply bitch slaps anything the government touches in South Africa, the differences may be less pronounced in other countries, but the same principles would apply

Yes, the market is able to provide a better standard of service, at a higher price, than the public option. However what happens in SA if you remove the public school option and only provide the public with private schools? What happens if you strip away the state pension and Telkom? You'd leave a majority of the public without services and without any private organizations willing to fill in the gap and provide an alternative at a price that they can afford.

 

[rietrot]

Yes, the market is able to provide a better standard of service, at a higher price,

The price only seems higher to you because your not calculating all the cost. You should include taxes.

 

[konfab]

Yes, the market is able to provide a better standard of service, at a higher price, than the public option. However what happens in SA if you remove the public school option and only provide the public with private schools? What happens if you strip away the state pension and Telkom? You'd leave a majority of the public without services and without any private organizations willing to fill in the gap and provide an alternative at a price that they can afford.

Telkom:
Minimum cost of a landline: R200pm. Minimum cost of a cellphone with prepaid airtime: R0. Cellphones are far cheaper and more available than landlines.

Schools:

We interviewed more than 1,000 parents and head teachers at 93 public and private schools in Nairobi. We asked them about their schooling decisions and what words they would use to describe low cost private schools and public schools.

Low cost private schools were described as being high quality, with harder-working teachers who were consistently present in the classroom. Homework was assigned regularly and teachers were observed by supervisors.

Public schools were described as corrupt, with lazy teachers who were often absent. Survey participants were more likely to describe public school teachers as well-trained, however, and said that the school had many learning materials available. In interviews, some parents also discussed their concerns about social class issues – such as wanting to keep their children away from the “dirty” children in public schools.

Overall, low cost private schools were seen as the better quality choice, when they were available for parents. For eight in ten parents whose children were in them, quality was a strong motivator. For public school parents, quality was a factor for 56%, with affordability of fees and proximity being the next greatest concerns.

https://mg.co.za/article/2018-02-06-nairobis-poorer-parents-are-choosing-private-over-free-primary-schools/

There is money to be made in education as parents want to the best for their children. When you let the market do its job, very interesting things happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_International_Academies

 

[cerebus]

Telkom:
Minimum cost of a landline: R200pm. Minimum cost of a cellphone with prepaid airtime: R0. Cellphones are far cheaper and more available than landlines.

My Telkom internet: R600/month for 30mb/s fixed lte with 300gb/50gb torrent soft cap and no landline needed (although we have one separately because my wife uses it). I can't find any private offering that beats it. Similarly with the UK, BT offers the best value for money. It's true that parastatals can become lethargic and sclerotic, but it is by no means inevitable. Of course market pressure and competition has been very healthy for Telkom.

Schools:

https://mg.co.za/article/2018-02-06-nairobis-poorer-parents-are-choosing-private-over-free-primary-schools/

There is money to be made in education as parents want to the best for their children. When you let the market do its job, very interesting things happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_International_Academies

There isn't much to be done if the government option collapses other than go private. It's happened to a large extent here in SA - but that doesn't make it inevitable. Similarly, in the US an overly privatized healthcare has led to a quagmire of unbalanced incentives and huge public dissatisfaction - to the point that even a crippled public option like Obamacare is hugely popular despite all its shortcomings.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Yes, the market is able to provide a better standard of service, at a higher price, than the public option.

When the public option is so far below standard that it becomes entirely useless it simply does not matter that it is cheaper, it might as well not exist in some cases

However what happens in SA if you remove the public school option and only provide the public with private schools? What happens if you strip away the state pension and Telkom? You'd leave a majority of the public without services and without any private organizations willing to fill in the gap and provide an alternative at a price that they can afford.

Take away the public option and a cheaper private option will surface, look at Curro, making money hand over fist at a price point much lower than most private schools ...

EDIT: add to that the minibus taxi industry, private solution at a price the masses can afford, even they beat our public transport system

 

[rietrot]

Telkom is private. It doesn't belong to the government anymore. That's why it works. It is false to hold up telkom as a government success.

 

[cerebus]

When the public option is so far below standard that it becomes entirely useless it simply does not matter that it is cheaper, it might as well not exist in some cases

Yes, but that isn't inevitable by any means - particularly not in a country as wealthy as the US. People have been predicting the collapse of the NHS for 70 years, but if you ask an average British person whether they should move to the US system, they would think you're crazy. I think you are really overlooking the drastic failure of the US private healthcare industry in this whole "US Politics" equation.

Take away the public option and a cheaper private option will surface, look at Curro, making money hand over fist at a price point much lower than most private schools ...

Curro? Yeah :erm: let them eat cake.

EDIT: add to that the minibus taxi industry, private solution at a price the masses can afford, even they beat our public transport system

Have you ever driven in a minibus taxi? It's AWFUL. The only reason it exists is because the government hasn't stepped up and offered a decent public transport infrastructure. When I was in the UK I used to travel everywhere by public transport, there was no need for me to have a car as a young person. Now since they privatized the railway system it costs £100 to do a return trip between London and Exeter where it used to cost me £30 for the same.

 

[konfab]

My Telkom internet: R600/month for 30mb/s fixed lte with 300gb/50gb torrent soft cap and no landline needed (although we have one separately because my wife uses it). I can't find any private offering that beats it. Similarly with the UK, BT offers the best value for money. It's true that parastatals can become lethargic and sclerotic, but it is by no means inevitable. Of course market pressure and competition has been very healthy for Telkom.

That is because Telkom is not really a parastatal anymore. And it is because you are purchasing a product in a highly competitive environment.

There isn't much to be done if the government option collapses other than go private. It's happened to a large extent here in SA - but that doesn't make it inevitable. Similarly, in the US an overly privatized healthcare has led to a quagmire of unbalanced incentives and huge public dissatisfaction - to the point that even a crippled socialised alternative like Obamacare is hugely popular despite all its shortcomings.

1) The US healthcare sector has a massive public component to it. There is the VA, Medicare and Medicaid, not to mention that it is regulated to the point that it might as well be government controlled.
2) Locking things to the public sector locks out innovation. Healthcare for example, is starting to get a lot of innovation w.r.t machine learning and AI that will substantially reduce the costs of care. Not to mention innovation in the business model:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/upshot/small-company-has-plan-to-provide-primary-care-for-the-masses.html

You can make the socialist argument of wealth redistribution, and to a point(which is means-tested cash grants) I can agree with it. But thinking the market is not able to provide the best price for goods and services is simply stupid.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Yes, but that isn't inevitable by any means - particularly not in a country as wealthy as the US.

https://www.ft.com/content/f2891b34-3705-11e7-99bd-13beb0903fa3

According to academic research shared exclusively with FTfm, US public pension funds lack $3.85tn that they need to pay the retirement benefits of current and retired workers.

Curro? Yeah :erm: let them eat cake.

Missing the point, Curro fills the gap very nicely between public and private schools. If public schools were to disappear that gap will be filled as well by some private venture, at a price point comparable to what it replaced and better quality.

Have you ever driven in a minibus taxi? It's AWFUL. The only reason it exists is because the government hasn't stepped up and offered a decent public transport infrastructure.

and our government never will, further proving the point that a free market > government intervention

 

[rietrot]

Have you ever driven in a minibus taxi?.

Tribalism and gangsterism. Taxi associations It's like our version of the mob. It is criminals pretending to be an authority because the state gives them that power.

 

[cerebus]

Tribalism and gangsterism. Taxi associations It's like our version of the mob. It is criminals pretending to be an authority because the state gives them that power.

I thought they were an example of the free market solving problems without socialist intervention, now you want the state to regulate them?