V&A Waterfront Vision

Do you have to pay to get into a shopping centre?

Just like you pay to park your car at the shopping center you pay to park your ass at the stadium. Kirstenbosch is not free to get in and closes at a certain time and is a public place. The grounds where Tuinhius is in Rondebosch were actually left to the citizens of this wonderfull country by Cecil John Rhodes (if I remember correctly) but we've all been shut out because the president likes to have tea parties there. That went through change, people probably objected but they got over it. I reckon you need to spend some time with none of the things change and development have brought to your life them maybe you will appreciate that change and progress is essential for SA and the world as a whole to evolve.

What exactly is your argument now?

You remind me of a mushroom;)
 
Just like you pay to park your car at the shopping center you pay to park your ass at the stadium. Kirstenbosch is not free to get in and closes at a certain time and is a public place. The grounds where Tuinhius is in Rondebosch were actually left to the citizens of this wonderfull country by Cecil John Rhodes (if I remember correctly) but we've all been shut out because the president likes to have tea parties there. That went through change, people probably objected but they got over it. I reckon you need to spend some time with none of the things change and development have brought to your life them maybe you will appreciate that change and progress is essential for SA and the world as a whole to evolve.

What exactly is your argument now?

You remind me of a mushroom;)
Ostrich for you.;)

Change for change sake.

The point I was trying to make, and which obviously hasn't penetrated, is that there was a common, which belonged to us and which we could visit whenever we wanted to, free. Now someone else controls it, it isn't free and we can't go there whenever we like. Next time they should keep their grubby hands off public land and use council land or expropriate private areas. Will they stop at Greenpoint, I doubt it. It is a matter of principle Mr. Ostrich.
 
Ostrich for you.;)

Change for change sake.

The point I was trying to make, and which obviously hasn't penetrated, is that there was a common, which belonged to us and which we could visit whenever we wanted to, free. Now someone else controls it, it isn't free and we can't go there whenever we like. Next time they should keep their grubby hands off public land and use council land or expropriate private areas. Will they stop at Greenpoint, I doubt it. It is a matter of principle Mr. Ostrich.

I do understand your point but we can't stop it from happening. Unfortunately it works like that anywhere, not only in SA. I believe they did the right thing by taking something that wasn't really well used and turning it into something that we as South Africans can be proud of.

In the beginning anyone could lay claim to a piece of land until the people in charge realised they could make money out of it. Now we pay 100's of thousands of rands for a plot to raise our family on. There are still 100's of places we can go, it doesn't have to be 1 place only and when the stadium is finished surely we can still get into the park?

I never went to the common, I thought it was well, exactly that... common. Not looked after, dirty etc. Much rather go to Rhodes mem or crystal pools or a walk up the mountain.

But we're all entitled to our views and opinions and that is exactly what a debate is about.
 
I do understand your point but we can't stop it from happening. Unfortunately it works like that anywhere, not only in SA. I believe they did the right thing by taking something that wasn't really well used and turning it into something that we as South Africans can be proud of.

In the beginning anyone could lay claim to a piece of land until the people in charge realised they could make money out of it. Now we pay 100's of thousands of rands for a plot to raise our family on. There are still 100's of places we can go, it doesn't have to be 1 place only and when the stadium is finished surely we can still get into the park?

I never went to the common, I thought it was well, exactly that... common. Not looked after, dirty etc. Much rather go to Rhodes mem or crystal pools or a walk up the mountain.

But we're all entitled to our views and opinions and that is exactly what a debate is about.
No. Just try that in London and see how long it is before the idea is hung up by it's short hairs!! Public pressure actually works in other countries.

We CAN stop it happening, because this is a democracy. Sadly, people with visions like capetownguy have their eye on a quick buck rather than the public good. He has disdain for public opinion as he openly demonstrates. Do we really need such a person involved in the City's affair - NO!

And please don't buy the excuse about it being dirty or dangerous. The only finger of blame for that goes STRAIGHT BACK to the council. If we do allow that sort of circular reasoning, every public park, open space or building will be MADE DERELICT deliberately by those with a VISION. Slumlord Lundy recognise thyself.

Even the mountain is not immune to these bloodsuckers. They're already building money-making ventures on that right now.
 
Ostrich for you.;)

Change for change sake.

The point I was trying to make, and which obviously hasn't penetrated, is that there was a common, which belonged to us and which we could visit whenever we wanted to, free. Now someone else controls it, it isn't free and we can't go there whenever we like. Next time they should keep their grubby hands off public land and use council land or expropriate private areas. Will they stop at Greenpoint, I doubt it. It is a matter of principle Mr. Ostrich.

I cannot believe you are still at it.

How often did you visit this awesome public common pray tell?
 
Ostrich for you.;)

Change for change sake.

The point I was trying to make, and which obviously hasn't penetrated, is that there was a common, which belonged to us and which we could visit whenever we wanted to, free. Now someone else controls it, it isn't free and we can't go there whenever we like. Next time they should keep their grubby hands off public land and use council land or expropriate private areas. Will they stop at Greenpoint, I doubt it. It is a matter of principle Mr. Ostrich.

What on earth is terrible about a R160 million investment in the urban park alone. An operator to manage and maintain the space including the stadium which IS public space.

Have you seen the terms of the contract with the operator regarding the urban park? Read the ROD? You don't like that its being upgrade but then you do but then you like the horrible "open space" we have now but then you dont like it managed and maintained but then you don't like this and then theres something wrong with that.
You really seem bitter more than anything else about something that will have a significant positive impact on the area and the space. For the first time in decades the common will become a public space, clean,safe and maintained..including the promenade.

The tennis clubs aren't accessible. Is the golf club accessible. Are the rugby clubs accessible. Then theres all that brown grass to the north..is that accessible.

As I'll keep saying. You don't bring anything new to the table and you don't back up what you say.

Anyway I'm off to the tennis courts, The ones with weeds growing from the lines.
 
Just like you pay to park your car at the shopping center you pay to park your ass at the stadium. Kirstenbosch is not free to get in and closes at a certain time and is a public place.

Well if you are a member of the Botanical Society of SA entrance is free to Kirstenbosch all year round and that includes free parking.
 
and when the stadium is finished surely we can still get into the park?

.

That's the million dollar question.
But since Morne and his Merry Men along with their cohorts State de France are managing the common as well, I'm 100% sure that they will be looking to turn a quick buck everywhere you look. Who knows what Golf fees will be like.
 
That's the million dollar question.
But since Morne and his Merry Men along with their cohorts State de France are managing the common as well, I'm 100% sure that they will be looking to turn a quick buck everywhere you look. Who knows what Golf fees will be like.

They manage the urban park portion of the common not the sports clubs.

Again, lets try and stick to fact and not invent things as we please.
 
What on earth is terrible about a R160 million investment in the urban park alone. An operator to manage and maintain the space including the stadium which IS public space.

Have you seen the terms of the contract with the operator regarding the urban park? Read the ROD? You don't like that its being upgrade but then you do but then you like the horrible "open space" we have now but then you dont like it managed and maintained but then you don't like this and then theres something wrong with that.
You really seem bitter more than anything else about something that will have a significant positive impact on the area and the space. For the first time in decades the common will become a public space, clean,safe and maintained..including the promenade.

The tennis clubs aren't accessible. Is the golf club accessible. Are the rugby clubs accessible. Then theres all that brown grass to the north..is that accessible.

As I'll keep saying. You don't bring anything new to the table and you don't back up what you say.

Anyway I'm off to the tennis courts, The ones with weeds growing from the lines.
You're asking the wrong questions and giving the wrong answers.
Pick some weeds for us will you. Then while you're there, ask why they haven't been removed ..
Well if you are a member of the Botanical Society of SA entrance is free to Kirstenbosch all year round and that includes free parking.
What does membership cost?
They manage the urban park portion of the common not the sports clubs.

Again, lets try and stick to fact and not invent things as we please.
You mean the former common then?
 
Nobody went to the former common anyway. Get over it FFS.
Keep giving the same answer, why not just clean up the common, it would have been far cheaper and agreeable to everyone? But then that never crossed your mind because it's full of concrete ;)
 
Keep giving the same answer, why not just clean up the common, it would have been far cheaper and agreeable to everyone? But then that never crossed your mind because it's full of concrete ;)

concrete?

Are we meant to apologize for the large podium(more public space) that acts as the gateway to the stadium? The concrete used for the stadium?

Should we have used timber?

The stadium is designed to some of the highest environmental standards and is a sustainable structure.

The common's R160 million upgrade begins next month.
I hear they might be using concrete for some of the public walkways!!

They are also planning a tennis stadium around the tennis clubs after the upgrade to those courts. Oh dear more concrete to build a world class venue!

Its all downhill I tell you.
 
About R250 and you get magazines and free entry into all SA's botanical gardens. What a bargain considering entry is R30-R40 per person per visit to Kirstenbosch and it's a good cause. Worthwhile if you visit more than 3 times a year.

No, it's more than that. I worked out I'd have to something like 12 times a year for it to be worthwhile (excluding the magazines and stuff, and the fact that you're supporting the survival of a beautiful place - just considering entrance fees). And parking is free even if you're not a member.

For the aquarium, on the other hand, an annual unlimited entry membership costs less than 2 entrance tickets, so you only have to go twice to make it worthwhile.

But that's somewhat off the current topic :)

Edit: looked up the fees, thought I'd update it here for future reference - entry fee is currently R32, annual membership is R270. So you have to go 9 times to make it worthwhile.
 
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You're asking the wrong questions and giving the wrong answers.
Pick some weeds for us will you. Then while you're there, ask why they haven't been removed ..
What does membership cost?

You mean the former common then?

Oh please. You're simply just bitter about everything and there's nothing I can do about that.

As I've said before and will say again. You bring Nothing new to the table except the same bitter opinions about the stadium and common. No new information, no plans, no reference to fact, no details on the terms of the operators contract, no urban park plans, no details on the design of the stadium no details to back up your statement that the public participation was a "farce".... absolutely bloody nothing but bitterness.

HenryJ was correct....FFS.
 
For all its merits you must remember Cape Town is a TINY TINY city, if not the smallest "city" on the world map of similiar cities that it is being compared to...And remember all this regurgitated top 10, top 50, No 1 in Africa etc etc -is all spin, which is clipped, hawked and spitballed by Tourism stakeholders like our useless Cape Town Tourism and it's done by the same international publications year after year. - Mostly Travel and Leisure and Conde Naste magazines. But here's a fact that these self annointed travel gurus overlooked- The most expensive city in the world is right here in Africa- Luanda. Angola. And there are far more beautiful places in Africa than Cape Town-Not that it matters any, but their voting readership is unlikely to ever set foot in any place that doesn't offer them all the creature comforts of their westernised homes-, but offer them Africa and a choice between the two cities that offer living similiar to their own lifestyles and then Cape Town will beat Johannesburg every time. I don't think these publications ever consider another African country at least not seriously. And while I'm at it, let me shoot down the myth of demand for CBD living. We've tried loft living for years- and it never took off. Still hasn't. The New York lifestyle won't work in Cape Town because Cape Town is Not a 24 hour city. Everything closes at 10pm except a few bars. On weekends the city is deserted. Except for those people who forked over a million or so for a loft apartment or for tourists who learn too late that they should have stayed in a better location. There are no 24 hour/ late night grocery shops and stores. there is nothing to sustain the city living concept. There's no vibe. For all this misguided city living concept, people still need to get in their cars and drive OUT of the cbd to get essentials. Oh. Wait. If You build it they will come. Sure. Not in my lifetime.

The 24 hour living can only be in place once there exists a population that can support these services. There is definitely a long way to go. Hopefully this is a step in the right direction.

CT city centre has reasonable buys
2008/12/30

A number of very affordable options are on to the market in central Cape Town, ranging from studio apartments to luxurious penthouses.The Central City area is now home to over 30 residential developments, including apartments, townhouses, penthouses and smaller studios. It also boasts an eclectic collection of trendy restaurants, coffee shops, internet cafes and designer boutiques, scattered among its modern office blocks and historical facades.

Buyers in this area to date have included a mix of full-time city residents, Gauteng-based commuters and some foreigners.

PGP's area manager for the Atlantic Seaboard and City Bowl, Basil Moraitis, says entry level prices in the Central City now stand at their most affordable level in years.

PGP's own lowest-priced apartment is a 33sqm one-bedroomed unit in the new Four Seasons security complex, on the market at just R580k. The building offers a 24-hour concierge service and has its own swimming pool and gym for the private use of residents.

Other deals include a 48sqm one-bed apartment in Piazza on Church, priced at R775k, and situated on historic Church Square. Two-bedroomed apartments start at just over R1,2m - for example, a 66sqm unit in Perspectives, a development situated on Roeland Street, is priced at R1,275m. A three-bedroomed penthouse apartment in the Icon building is also being marketed at R5,9m, inclusive of VAT.

"These prices represent great opportunities for young professionals wishing to live close to work and close to the buzzing city nightlife, and also for investors wishing to take advantage of the slowdown in the market and buy at the most affordable levels in years, then earn rental income. There is a strong and consistent demand for rental properties in the city, both on long- and short-term lets, and from a variety of sources," says Moraitis.

"For example, we see parents of students seeking rentals (and purchases) in the affordable buildings close to the Cape University of Technology campus, while businesspeople tend to prefer the developments situated close to the Cape Town International Convention Centre and key office buildings. For tourists, proximity to the V&A Waterfront is a key factor, as well as ease of access to transport and other leading tourist attractions.

"Investment buyers can also opt to purchase an apartment and let it, furnished, on a daily basis, via the many developments offering a rental pool, such as Fountains Suites, Icon, Circa and Mandela Rhodes Place."

And what about the lifestyle on offer to residents? It is a very different story today from five years ago, says PGP's MD for the Western Cape metro region, Laurie Wener.

"In the past five years, crime in the CBD has dropped by 60%, and the area has undergone a significant facelift," she says.

"Billions of rands have been invested in residential densification, and there have been huge improvements in the overall cleanliness of the city. Plans are now underway to improve the internal transport network within the Central City, including the upgrade of Cape Town station, the introduction of the new Bus Rapid Transport System and decentralized multi-storey parking garages allowing for a park and ride system, as well as investment in pedestrian and cycling zones throughout the city.

"Money is also being spent upgrading public spaces such as the Grand Parade and Church Square, and updating the Golden Acre shopping centre. The chief executive of the Cape Town Partnership, Andrew Boraine, indicated late last year that there was between R28bn and R30bn worth of new private and public sector investments planned for the Central City over the next three to five years. All these projects will have a significant impact on the area, and can only improve the prospects for capital growth for property owners."

Image 1: With three bedrooms and two bathrooms, this apartment is on the market at R5,9m, inclusive of VAT.

Image 2: A 33sqm one-bedroomed apartment in the City Centre's has come to market at R580k.

For more information contact PGP's City Bowl office on 021 423 2150.
 
Wrt to the Green Point Common.

Plans for its improvement started way back in 1995/1996 which centred around the construction of the Olympic Tennis Centre, incorporated into the old Green Point Stadium. This included the plan for a new boulevard, Granger Bay Boulevard(which is currently under construction!) to link the site to the V&A Waterfront.

If I'm not mistaken a 1998 Green Point Framework also exists.

Following that in 2001/2002, the Green Point Common Action Plan included a large Helium Baloon projects, Granger Bay Boulevard and improvements to the entire site. Nothing close to the R160 million upgrade to take place in 2009.

Even the 2001/2002 plan included the need for an operator of the stadium to ensure it is maintained and made use of. This plan under Morkel, Marais and Mfeketo aka "fat cow I like to sit around and do nothing" fizzled out.

The decision to locate the World Cup stadium at the site has finally provided the catalyst needed to transform the site according to plans in place for more than a decade.

A council document of the 2002 Green Point Common Action Plan and the block plans for the 1997 Cape Town Olympic Bid Olympic Tennis Centre plan available on request.
 
In some top ANC position as you'd expect. Incompetence is the key to working your way up the ANC ladder.
 
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