Visiting a Homeopath

[Sherbang]

He was referring to the like vs like situation. Not homeopathic medicine itself. As for your bolded bits, all subjective.

injecting potassium was a stupid example.
It's like me saying if I cut someone open they'll die so obviously surgery doesn't work :wtf:

subjective is irrelevant - that was his experience with homeopathy, nothing to do with him being gullible or a victim of fraud. Or are you saying the growth didn't really fall away never to return, it was just subjective? And his partner wasn't really pregnant, it was just subjective? Was it just coincidence that these results were achieved after homeopathy?

The reason homeopathy remains so popular is because millions of people have similar subjective experiences. You can ignore them all you like, deride them, insult them or whatever, it doesn't change their experience.

 

[HapticSimian]

injecting potassium was a stupid example.
It's like me saying if I cut someone open they'll die so obviously surgery doesn't work :wtf:

subjective is irrelevant - that was his experience with homeopathy, nothing to do with him being gullible or a victim of fraud. Or are you saying the growth didn't really fall away never to return, it was just subjective? And his partner wasn't really pregnant, it was just subjective? Was it just coincidence that these results were achieved after homeopathy?

The reason homeopathy remains so popular is because millions of people have similar subjective experiences. You can ignore them all you like, deride them, insult them or whatever, it doesn't change their experience.

*DING!* *DING!* *DING!*

Congrats on cracking the basis for the appeal of homoeopathy.

*edit*

Took me a few minutes to realise you'll jump at the opportunity to misconstrue the intention behind my razor-sharp wit. Of course it is not coincidence alone, but a combination of that, the placebo effect and regression towards the mean that easily accounts for every miracle cure attributed to homoeopathy ever made.

 

[Slootvreter]

One cannot overdose on homeopathic remedies. Woohoo!

 

[Sherbang]

*DING!* *DING!* *DING!*

Congrats on cracking the basis for the appeal of homoeopathy.

pfffft 'coincidence' is just another way of saying we don't understand why it works, it's not supposed to, but it does... must be coincidence...

 

[RiaX]

Not really ... what do you think happens to things you ingest ? they vanish ? they enter your blood stream and circulate. Do you know why you cant drink sea water for example ? the salt content will cause your kidneys to collapse. Potassium is no different. (just the quantities would have to change)

Homeopathy will stay in oral dosage form because its not worthy to enter any other form as it has ZERO real effect. The difference between a drug orally and IV is the plasma concentration WRT to time. An injection has 100% at time of injection where oral must be processed and build its levels.

I was refering to like cures like with extremities, which clearly where above you. The lack of understanding with subjective and objective data is also apparent. Its clear now why you would support such a nonsensical form of medical treatment.

EDIT:

homeopathy also claims that extremely small concentrations of a substance allows water to build a memory of the substance.

explain to me how water remembers something like this:

http://mtnviewfarm.net/images/drugs-poisons-1464c001.gif

when it is this:

http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/87/Water-2D-flat.png

 

[HapticSimian]

pfffft 'coincidence' is just another way of saying we don't understand why it works, it's not supposed to, but it does... must be coincidence...

Added a bit to the post above, just for you.

 

[Unhappy438]

injecting potassium was a stupid example.
It's like me saying if I cut someone open they'll die so obviously surgery doesn't work :wtf:

You are still missing the point , I will let Riax explain it to you.

subjective is irrelevant - that was his experience with homeopathy, nothing to do with him being gullible or a victim of fraud. Or are you saying the growth didn't really fall away never to return, it was just subjective? And his partner wasn't really pregnant, it was just subjective? Was it just coincidence that these results were achieved after homeopathy?

I never said his experiences didn't happen , it's that they can't be used as evidence that the stuff works. I painted 3 rocks purple and licked each one of them. The next day I woke up and my penis had grown 2 inches. This alone is not evidence that licking purple rocks enlarges penises as it is nothing but subjective and anecdotal evidence.When it gets to the knitty gritty of actually validating homeopathic medicine through the proper means we are unable to do so.

The reason homeopathy remains so popular is because millions of people have similar subjective experiences. You can ignore them all you like, deride them, insult them or whatever, it doesn't change their experience.

Nope the reason it's so popular is because health is an emotional thing for us humans. These con artists prey on that emotion to make themselves rich. I'm not ignoring , deriding or insulting , I'm merely stating that their experience is not evidence that homeopathy works.

 

[porchrat]

injecting potassium was a stupid example.
It's like me saying if I cut someone open they'll die so obviously surgery doesn't work :wtf:

subjective is irrelevant - that was his experience with homeopathy, nothing to do with him being gullible or a victim of fraud. Or are you saying the growth didn't really fall away never to return, it was just subjective? And his partner wasn't really pregnant, it was just subjective? Was it just coincidence that these results were achieved after homeopathy?

The reason homeopathy remains so popular is because millions of people have similar subjective experiences. You can ignore them all you like, deride them, insult them or whatever, it doesn't change their experience.

So you disagree with the concept of "like vs like" then as a viable method for treatment then yes?

 

[porchrat]

pfffft 'coincidence' is just another way of saying we don't understand why it works, it's not supposed to, but it does... must be coincidence...

No it is another variant of the old saying "correlation does not equal causation".

Without a big study attempting to show a trend you cannot infer anything reliably from a single anecdotal account. Even mmultiple anecdotal accounts are pretty much worthless. You need controls, you need large sample sizes, you need to eliminate confounding factors. Unfortunately for homoeopathy whenever they do the studies with large sample sizes the homoeopathy can't beat the placebos.

 

[Sherbang]

*DING!* *DING!* *DING!*

Congrats on cracking the basis for the appeal of homoeopathy.

*edit*

Took me a few minutes to realise you'll jump at the opportunity to misconstrue the intention behind my razor-sharp wit. Of course it is not coincidence alone, but a combination of that, the placebo effect and regression towards the mean that easily accounts for every miracle cure attributed to homoeopathy ever made.

So you're saying it does work after all - by a combination of coincidence, the placebo effect and regression towards the mean!
Glad we finally agree

I do like the way people throw around 'the placebo effect' as if that explains everything, despite having no clue about how the placebo effect works or actually achieves results in the absence of any known cause. Really, it explains nothing.
He drank a glass of wine and was cured of athletes foot - oh must be the placebo effect... oh, I see, that makes sense!

 

[HapticSimian]

So you're saying it does work after all - by a combination of coincidence, the placebo effect and regression towards the mean!
Glad we finally agree

For it to *work* it has to *do* something measurable. By its very nature it is chemically inert, and thus cannot *do* anything in and of itself. A year or so back the Internet was full of people vehemently claiming that their rubber-bands-with-shiny-stickers did all kinds of wonderful things for them. Am I understanding you correctly that you'd advocate the wide-spread wearing of PowerBalance bracelets?

I do like the way people throw around 'the placebo effect' as if that explains everything, despite having no clue about how the placebo effect works or actually achieves results in the absence of any known cause. Rely, it explains nothing.
He drank a glass of wine and was cured of athletes foot - oh must be the placebo effect... oh, I see, that makes sense!

The placebo effect, whilst not understood, is a known phenomenon which can be accounted for. That being said, you move in very odd circles if you hold the consumption of wine to be a possible cure for athlete's foot.

 

[Sherbang]

You are still missing the point , I will let Riax explain it to you.

Yes, you do that, obviously you can't explain it either...

I never said his experiences didn't happen , it's that they can't be used as evidence that the stuff works. I painted 3 rocks purple and licked each one of them. The next day I woke up and my penis had grown 2 inches. This alone is not evidence that licking purple rocks enlarges penises as it is nothing but subjective and anecdotal evidence.When it gets to the knitty gritty of actually validating homeopathic medicine through the proper means we are unable to do so.

I understand that. My response to Riax calling the guy gullible and a victim of fraud, not about it's value as evidence

Nope the reason it's so popular is because health is an emotional thing for us humans. These con artists prey on that emotion to make themselves rich. I'm not ignoring , deriding or insulting , I'm merely stating that their experience is not evidence that homeopathy works.

Many alternative therapies have come and gone, homeopathy is one one of the few that has remained popular for centuries and is even increasing in popularity.

 

[Sherbang]

For it to *work* it has to *do* something measurable. By its very nature it is chemically inert, and thus cannot *do* anything in and of itself. A year or so back the Internet was full of people vehemently claiming that their rubber-bands-with-shiny-stickers did all kinds of wonderful things for them. Am I understanding you correctly that you'd advocate the wide-spread wearing of PowerBalance bracelets?


The placebo effect, whilst not understood, is a known phenomenon which can be accounted for. That being said, you move in very odd circles if you hold the consumption of wine to be a possible cure for athlete's foot.

It works, promise! You have to drink a lot though

 

[Unhappy438]

He drank a glass of wine and was cured of athletes foot - oh must be the placebo effect... oh, I see, that makes sense!

Actually if you understood the placebo effect you would realise this is a terrible example.

 

[Sherbang]

Actually if you understood the placebo effect you would realise this is a terrible example.

Really, Are you claiming to understand the placebo effect?

 

[Sherbang]

So you disagree with the concept of "like vs like" then as a viable method for treatment then yes?

Yes, I disagree with the concept of "like curing like" as a viable method for treatment (unless you're using it to refer to vaccines).

 

[Unhappy438]

Yes, you do that, obviously you can't explain it either...

I can but I prefer to not speak for other people, he has clarified what he meant by the example.

understand that. My response to Riax calling the guy gullible and a victim of fraud, not about it's value as evidence

You quoted me?

Many alternative therapies have come and gone, homeopathy is one one of the few that has remained popular for centuries and is even increasing in popularity.

Argumentum ad populum.

 

[Unhappy438]

Really, Are you claiming to understand the placebo effect?

Nobody entirely understands it, there are a few basic prerequisites though. Do some research , 10 points if you figure out where you went wrong.

 

[porchrat]

Yes, I disagree with the concept of "like curing like" as a viable method for treatment (unless you're using it to refer to vaccines).

Then congratulations you disagree with homoeopathy! Yay!

 

[DJ...]

joelus, you consistently attempt to defend homeopathy but then refuse to address certain details on the basis of you supposedly not promoting its efficacy. That's rather disingenuous of you. It appears that you are in fact a homeopathy punter, or at the very least believe in its efficacy, so it would be mighty fine of you to address previous points raised regarding the logical and scientific objections to it possibly working.

What gives water its memory?
Why does water have selective memory?
What makes a homeopathic remedy any more effective than water?
Why, when homeopathy is tested under controlled, double blind experiments, does it not show greater efficacy than the placebo effect?

You can't carry on harping on about how some people perceive it to be a cure and therefore it is a cure. Would you give your kids homeopathic treatments for cancer? Would you give your wife homeopathic treatments for cholera? Would you treat yourself with a homeopathic remedy for malaria?

If not, then how is it in any way different for influenza? For a common cold? For bacterial infections resulting in runny tummies? For worts? For sleep?

How is it that homeopathy can only supposedly cure minor ailments that are likely to rectify themselves without external intervention? And why when a homepath is consulted AFTER a doctor, is the homeopathic treatment credited for the success? And why is it that we don't hear the stories of those who aren't cured by homeopaths? I can tell you the answer to the last question, and that's because they realise it is tolly and move on. The failures of homepathy far outweigh the successes...