Weight loss

[mister]

see below

DJ: A further note: the medium chain fatty acids in coconut oil provide a very quick source of ketones for the brain. You might find it interesting to do some research on the use of MCT oil in alzheimer's patients. A possible theory floating around is that the brains of alzheimer's patients become insulin resistant and cannot use blood sugar properly. In these cases the ketones from MCT oil are providing an energy source for brains that are ultimately starving to death. I hope this sheds a little light on how a combination of caffeine & coconut oil provides us normal folks a nice mental sharpness to start the day off with

 

[DJ...]

No need for omb. I'll explain the science of coconut oil quickly.

Coconut oil is predominantly made up of saturated fats. It is one of the unhealthiest fats in this respect. It is chock full if saturated fats. But not all saturated fats are unhealthy. Long chain fatty acids are terrible for you, but shorter chain fatty acids have very little effect. Basically, any fatty acid with fewer than 12 carbon bonds in its chain is fine. 12 and above is unhealthy and we know this. Coconut oil is mostly made up of lauric acid - a 12 carbon bond chain. It has been extensively tested and consistently shown to increase cholesterol and adversely affect blood lipid levels.

It also gets more complicated when you consider that increasing hdl cholesterol (the good cholesterol that lauric acid increases) is not necessarily a good thing. It depends on the functioning of the hdl type. Some hdl is effectively non-functional, and that appears to be the case with lauric acid. It is pointless increasing such hdl levels as they simply serve no purpose. It is incredibly complex, but no evidence exists for its health benefits.

And lastly, and this is incredibly important, the coconut oil that you're consuming is probably very, very bad for you. Saturated fats are solids at room temperature and below. As I've preciously explained in depth on this forum in the margarine threads, they will hydrogenate these oils to allow them to retain a liquid viscosity at room temperature. This converts the carbon chains to trans fatty acids, which are insanely bad for you. You should not be touching that stuff. So unless you're buying solid coconut fat, you're destroying your health. And coconut oil, based on the evidence we have, has very little health benefits, and plenty of health risks. Health risks repeatable under scientific scrutiny.

I can get into the butter thing as well, but I don't think it's necessary. There is no science to back up one moron's claims. Nothing at all. It's just a claim after some guy ate yak fat. It's bunk and the science makes no sense. Coffee on the other hand can aid in weight loss. So... kaching... maybe we now know why it works...

 

[mister]

No need for omb. I'll explain the science of coconut oil quickly.

DJ, I would consider your entire post to be nonsense. I would hazard a guess that most of studies proving coconut oil to be bad were done with hydrogenated coconut oil. My lipid profile is in excellent condition, and I have been consuming non hydrogenated virgin coconut oil for many years.

 

[D3nz]

No need for omb. I'll explain the science of coconut oil quickly.

...

Although I'm doing the keto diet, I'm not that clued up on it. OMB is great at the science. I do know that we want our bodies to use fat as fuel instead of carbs. I assure you in the two weeks I've been consuming fats, I've lost weight. It's also helping me in other ways. No pms symptoms and no more reaching for a jacket at the slightest nip in the air.

 

[mister]

Coconut oil is predominantly made up of saturated fats. It is one of the unhealthiest fats in this respect.

In the Land of Oz: The Latest Attack on Coconut Oil

As health-seekers in the know are increasingly consuming butter, lard, tallow and coconut oil, they should expect to see attacks on traditional fats in the media and in the scientific journals—both of which receive substantial financial support from the vegetable oil and fast food industries.

...

WAPF members know that saturated fats do not clog arteries, whether they are the short- and medium-chain type in coconut oil or the longer chain fatty acids in beef, cream and cheese. In these pages we have supplied numerous references to support this statement. One in particular is the 1968 International Atherosclerosis Project, in which over 22,000 corpses in fourteen nations were cut open and examined for plaques in the arteries. Investigators found the same degree of atheroma (artery clogs) in all parts of the world—in populations that consumed large amounts of animal products rich in saturated fats and in those that were largely vegetarian.2

The “buzz on the street” about coconut oil’s benefits is firmly grounded in science. Saturated fats in general enhance the immune system,3 and coconut oil in particular increases body temperature and is preferentially used by the body for energy rather than storage.4 The claim about benefits to blood pressure is not one that I have ever made, and as far as I know, there are no human studies that have looked at the effect of coconut oil on blood pressure.

Coconut Oil and Aging

Dr. Oz also claims that all saturated fats cause aging “by turning on a potentially harmful family of genes that we docs call RAS genes. They tell your body to churn out inflammatory proteins that cause heart disease, stroke, wrinkles, impotence and immune system slip-ups.” Actually, what these studies really showed was that fish oil and corn oil activated RAS genes to their carcinogenic form, not saturated fat. (See sidebar, page 51.) In fact, these studies confirm earlier research showing that what causes aging are toxic, rancid modern vegetable oils, full of free radicals, which are known to contribute to heart disease and cancer.5 A study by a plastic surgeon found that women who consumed mostly vegetable oils had far more wrinkles than those who used traditional animal fats.6


...

It is important to explain why so many animal studies get negative results for coconut oil. The coconut oil used in laboratory studies is usually fully hydrogenated coconut oil. The process of full hydrogenation gets rid of all the unsaturated fatty acids in coconut oil. Researchers began using fully hydrogenated coconut oil to study the effects of essential fatty acid deficiency— they used coconut oil because it is the only fat that can be fully hydrogenated and still be soft enough for rats to eat. The poor results obtained in these studies—such as the mental impairment cited by Oz—are due to essential fatty acid (EFA) deficiency and not the fault of the saturated fats in coconut oil. It is extremely deceitful for commentators to blame coconut oil in studies such as these—as they often do.

In the study quoted by Oz, the rats were also fed 2 percent purified cholesterol. This will speed up the onset of EFA deficiency if the diet is devoid of EFA. (See sidebar, page 51.)

According to Oz, “Sat fat doesn’t do pretty things for your memory, either. It decreases a chemical known as brain-derived neurotrophic factor [BDNF], which is responsible for recall and learning.”

BDNF is a growth stimulus for neurons and some studies indicate that lowered BDNF is associated with depression. However, lowering of BDNF does not always lead to depressive effects. It would appear that BDNF has depressive effects in some parts of the brain and anti-depressive effects in others.8

It would indeed be strange if saturated fats depressed brain function since the brain contains more saturated fat than almost any other organ in the body.

....

The story is a report by Dr. Mary Newport, a neonatologist and medical director of the newborn intensive care unit at Spring Hill Regional Hospital in Florida. About six years ago, her husband, an accountant who worked at home, began struggling with daily tasks. His deterioration progressed and he was eventually diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer’s. Dr. Newport searched the Internet for clinical drug trials that would accept her husband and discovered that a drug containing medium-chain triglycerides, the kind of fat in coconut oil, had achieved remarkable results—not just slowing the progression of the disease but providing real improvement.

She decided to give her husband coconut oil, two tablespoons per day, and her husband immediately improved, scoring 18 on a cognitive assessment, four points higher than he had scored the previous day. Within a week he showed tremendous improvement and five months later her husband was leading a relatively normal life, although still unable to resume his work as an accountant, apparently due to permanent brain damage.

One important test for Alzheimer’s progression is to draw the face of a clock from memory. The illustration above shows Mr. Newport’s improvement as he took coconut oil.

Why does coconut oil work so well? Several researchers have been looking into the therapeutic use of high-fat ketonic diets in the treatment of disease. In 2001, Dr. Richard L. Veech of the (National Institutes of Health) NIH, and others, published an article entitled, “Ketone bodies, potential therapeutic uses.”10 In 2003, George F. Cahill, Jr. and Richard Veech authored, “Ketoacids? Good Medicine?”11 and in 2004, Richard Veech also published a review of the therapeutic implications of ketone bodies.12 The body produces ketone bodies from coconut oil and these can serve as food for the brain and nervous system when our cells develop insulin resistance, which happens in everyone to a greater or lesser extent as we age. With insulin resistance, ketone bodies derived from coconut oil appear to protect neurons when glucose is not available.13

Researchers are now looking into the exciting possibility of using coconut oil as a treatment not only for Alzheimer’s disease but also for Parkinson’s disease, Huntington’s disease, multiple sclerosis and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS or Lou Gehrig’s disease), drug resistant epilepsy, brittle type I diabetes, and diabetes type II, where there is insulin resistance. Ketone bodies may help the brain recover after a loss of oxygen in newborns through adults. Children with drug resistant epilepsy sometimes respond to an extremely low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.14

 

[DJ...]

see below

Just multiquote please. Makes it difficult to respond like this, but I'll do it nonetheless...

Because coffee is delicious, plus caffeine raises metabolism

Caffeine raises BMR marginally and for short periods. You'd have to consumer a crapload of caffeine to make any real difference to your BMR to a noticeable degree, to the point that it would be rather unhealthy. Caffeine is rather toxic to humans. I've gone into this in great detail on the forum before...

Coconut oil is a rich source of medium chain fatty acids. They are metabolized differently than other fats and are ultimately a very quick source of ketone bodies

Hogwash. Lauric acid a long-chain carbon bond. The proponents of coconut oil attempt to claim that it is a medium chain fatty acid because it contains 12 carbon bonds, but this is simply not true. It is, for all scientific purposes, a long chain fatty acid. Numerous studies have tested the effects of lauric acid on the human body and the results back up the position of lauric acid being a long chain fatty acid.

Stop buying into the marketing because they say so. Coconut oil is a very rich source of long chain fatty acids, not medium chain fatty acids. It increases the risk of cardiovascular diseases. You can't simply claim it as medium chain because it is near the precipice of the distinctions. That's called lying, and it is what the marketers of coconut oil have been doing.

In addition, what you really need to be watching is your insulin levels if you're hellbent on managing the health aspects of your cholesterol.

But once again, none of this has anything to do with weight loss, but health. Managing your cholesterol has nothing to do with weight gain or loss. It's simply a health issue. Too many people confuse the two...

The coffee drink is used on an ultra low carb diet, and is used for energy. Extra ketone bodies end up in your urine if not used.

What's this ketone nonsense all about in any case? Ketosis is a normal metabolic function. The proponents of this diet attempt to scare people into thinking that there's some god-awful process going on here, but that's got nothing to do with ketosis. It has to do with ketoacidosis which is completely different, and an issue particularly with type 1 diabetes sufferers. If you're adopting a low carb diet than you have to include fats to ensure you don't destroy your kidneys, that much I agree with. I wasn't aware that this was being used to counteract a low-carb diet. I will concede that there is some evidence for the efficacy of this method...

There is a lot more to this than reading one or two stupid blogs

But...it was started by a guy who consumed yak fat and felt better. That's the principle. On its own, this would do absolutely nothing apart from raise bad cholesterol and increase weigh gain. It might help with a regulated low-carb intake diet though. But on its own it is useless...

Absolute rubbish. Carbs & fat together wreck your lipid profile. On a carb restrictive diet fat will actually improve cholesterol levels

I'm agreeing with you on this to an extent. I wasn't aware that this was part of a low-carb diet. But again, on its own, this method us useless. I wouldn't recommend sticks of butter though - there are better fats to consume with a low-carb diet...well...healthier at least. I'd also spread the fat intake over the course of the day instead of cramming it, as the body will want to store it initially...

Carb restriction lowers insulin levels allowing fat to be burned. This would not happen if carbs were available in the blood

It is far more complex than that, but can be summated like that I suppose. I was specifically referring to the fat intake though, not the carb aspect...

I suppose it is funny if you have no idea what is going on, maybe if you spent some time researching you would find it more interesting.

There are hundreds of pages to this thread. Expecting me to have read them all is ridiculous. I clearly wasn't aware that this was a part of a low-carb diet. When I had a look at it, the proponents are heralding it in isolation, as if it is a wonder cure in and of itself. That was the premise I was working with in this thread. On that basis I still maintain that it is lol-worthy...

 

[googoodoll]

Damnit man this thread is making me eat more popcorn than what is good for me.
/extra salt...

 

[DJ...]

DJ, I would consider your entire post to be nonsense.

Because you say so. Good on you...

I would hazard a guess that most of studies proving coconut oil to be bad were done with hydrogenated coconut oil.

And that's where you'd be wrong. Science breaks down the components and tests them individually. In coconut oil's case, the testing of lauric acid has been extensive. A quick squizz around pubmed will show you this. In addition, you will notice that the first result of lauric acid on pubmed is an analysis of long chain fatty acids. Because...well...lauric acid is a long chain fatty acid. It's not a medium-chain fatty acid...

My lipid profile is in excellent condition, and I have been consuming non hydrogenated virgin coconut oil for many years.

And considering that you appear to be conscious of certain health matters, that would make sense. Attributing it to coconut oil is a stretch, especially considering that the science behind it makes no sense. Personally, I'd rather be informed about what aspect of my diet is contributing towards a decent lipid profile than continuing to attribute it to something that may in fact be having no effect. In addition, ordinary lipid panels are becoming antiquated as science learns more about the subject. We now know that simply raising HDL levels is not necessarily healthy. It has more to do with the functioning of the HDL types as opposed to the quantity. Ordinary lipid panels measure quantity, not type, nor effectiveness. So having a decent lipid profile these days doesn't mean much if it means that our intake is made up of ineffective HDL types.

Also, this has nothing to do with weight loss, but rather general health...

 

[DJ...]

In the Land of Oz: The Latest Attack on Coconut Oil

Rather read the effects of lauric acid on the human body instead. There is no hydrogenation thereof and there is a lot of science to read up on. It is the principle component of coconut oil...

 

[mister]

Caffeine raises BMR marginally and for short periods. You'd have to consumer a crapload of caffeine to make any real difference to your BMR to a noticeable degree, to the point that it would be rather unhealthy. Caffeine is rather toxic to humans. I've gone into this in great detail on the forum before

There are benefits to coffee, and some of us love it...

The proponents of coconut oil attempt to claim that it is a medium chain fatty acid because it contains 12 carbon bonds, but this is simply not true. It is, for all scientific purposes, a long chain fatty acid.

Disagree.

It increases the risk of cardiovascular diseases

.

Nonsense.

In addition, what you really need to be watching is your insulin levels if you're hellbent on managing the health aspects of your cholesterol.

Agree 100%

What's this ketone nonsense all about in any case? Ketosis is a normal metabolic function. The proponents of this diet attempt to scare people into thinking that there's some god-awful process going on here,

Erm, I think you have misunderstood something...

I wasn't aware that this was being used to counteract a low-carb diet. I will concede that there is some evidence for the efficacy of this method...

Not to counteract, but in conjunction with

It might help with a regulated low-carb intake diet though. But on its own it is useless...

Agree 100%. I would NEVER drink this after consuming any carbs in a day!

I'm agreeing with you on this to an extent. I wasn't aware that this was part of a low-carb diet. But again, on its own, this method us useless.

Agree

I'd also spread the fat intake over the course of the day instead of cramming it, as the body will want to store it initially...

Disagree. After rising your body is burning ketones, if you have carbs you shut down fat burning and switch to sugars. I would consume the fat first thing, and leave carbs for later in the day.

On that basis I still maintain that it is lol-worthy...

lol - thanks for joining in

 

[googoodoll]

I'm with DJ on this one but then again what do I know...

 

[D3nz]

I'm with DJ on this one but then again what do I know...

DJ agreed that it might help on a LCHF diet

 

[mister]

In coconut oil's case, the testing of lauric acid has been extensive. A quick squizz around pubmed will show you this. In addition, you will notice that the first result of lauric acid on pubmed is an analysis of long chain fatty acids. Because...well...lauric acid is a long chain fatty acid. It's not a medium-chain fatty acid...

We'll just end up going round in circles. I highly respect the work of Mary Enig and I have seen nothing but good effects from making coconut oil part of my diet.

And considering that you appear to be conscious of certain health matters, that would make sense. Attributing it to coconut oil is a stretch, especially considering that the science behind it makes no sense.

Agree.

Personally, I'd rather be informed about what aspect of my diet is contributing towards a decent lipid profile than continuing to attribute it to something that may in fact be having no effect.

We could spend a long time discussing it

In addition, ordinary lipid panels are becoming antiquated as science learns more about the subject. We now know that simply raising HDL levels is not necessarily healthy. It has more to do with the functioning of the HDL types as opposed to the quantity.

Absolutely agree. Knowing your LDL and HDL sub-fractions is important...

Also, this has nothing to do with weight loss, but rather general health

Losing weight is often the first step in really wanting to improve your health

 

[DJ...]

I have been consuming non hydrogenated virgin coconut oil for many years.

I only point this out because I want to help in this thread, if that's okay, but if you're consuming a liquid version of coconut oil then whoever is selling it to you is lying. Or they've adopted interesterification into their processes, but this is highly unlikely in the coconut oil business considering the high cost of doing so...

Here's a post of mine on the process and other details about fats, if you're interested - http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthr...ble-butter?p=10899841&viewfull=1#post10899841

Let's break down this issue into its components:

1) cholesterol - butter is high in saturated fats, which traditionally was considered the leading cause of increased blood cholesterol. As we know, elevated blood cholesterol levels are a major risk factor for heart disease, in fact the leading cause last I checked. But the issue is not as black and white as that. In order to understand the idiosyncratic nature of saturated fats, one has to understand the various hydrocolloid chains in fats. I won't bore you to death with in-depth explanations about these, but suffice it to say that there is still no strong evidence either way in this respect. Studies have shown paradoxical outcomes for various lipid-based intake research. In fact they show vastly different results in men and women with various lipoprotein physiologies. All that we know, is that more research is required.

As an example of how complicated this research gets, men and women will use different indicators for HDL and LDL pointers for coronary disease or suppressed lipoprotein physiologies. Researchers for the last few decades did not realise this, and instead lumped everyone onto the same tests. We're slowly having to rethink and perform these tests all over again using better indicators. More info here if you're interested - http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/5/1102.full

Such conclusions make meta analysis of research more important, and such research has already been conducted - http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2010/01/13/ajcn.2009.27725.abstract

The conclusion?



In other words, an analysis of all studies into this issue shows no correlation between higher saturated fat intake and increased risks of coronary disease. Again, going against what we thought we knew about heart disease. Here is the abstract from modern research using better indicators: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0899900711003145



Other research shows no correlation between higher saturated fat intake and increased cholesterol at all, but rather a positive correlation between increased saturated fat intake and mass of LDL particles.

So the bottom line is that we have been conned by the margarine industry into believing outright that butter is bad for you. As far as we know at the moment, no specific case can be made either way. Some research shows a direct correlation with increased saturated fat intake and coronary disease, but modern research disagrees with a lot of the conclusions they came up with back then.

However that doesn't make margarine bad for you necessarily. In fact it can be pretty damn good for you:

2) Hydrogenation - let's start off with the basics. A saturated fat will usually be solid at room temperature. Like butter. Or lard. Or bacon fat. Unsaturated fats however will not be solid at room temperature. This is because of the way the hydrocolloids bond with each other and has to do with "spare" hydrogen atoms. Basically, unsaturated fats have double bonds that cannot stack neatly on top of each other, in simplistic terms, which means they cannot form a solid bond. Hence why they are liquid at room temperatures.

Hydrogenation is the process of chemically altering the structures of unsaturated fats to allow them to bond better, making them solid at room temperature. They achieve this using a combination of metal catalysts, heat and pressurised hydrogen injected into the oils. We have come to the understanding that hydrogenation is not good for you. Most modern research points to it being quite bad for you, in fact, and induces significant quantities of trans-fatty acids which are very bad for you. Hence why more than a decade ago already, most manufacturers turned their attentions to alternatives to hydrogenation for margarines and spreads. They came up with a process called interesterification. This is the process of moving fatty acids from one triglyceride to another, which in turn changes the viscosity of the product, its shelf-life, and its melting point, which allows it to remain solid at room temperature without the need for hydrogenation. So far interesterification appears to be perfectly safe, and it makes sense that it would be, as unlike hydrogentation, interesterification does not alter the fatty acids at all.

So nowadays most brands do not hydrgenate their oils to make margarine. In fact they use a perfectly safe method of altering the melting point of oils. In addition, the likes of Flora add cholesterol fighting additives to their spreads which have been proven to combat cholesterol. Flora in fact stopped hydrogenating their oils in the 90s already and I believe their current products are completely free of trans-fatty acids.

But be warned, cheap margarine manufacturers absolutely still use hydrogenated oils in their products. Buying the cheap stuff is just not healthy for you at all. Rather buy margarine that advertises that it doesn't use hydrogenated oils, and is trans-fatty acid free. There are a lot of butter proponents out there, and I in fact believe that butter is hardly a danger to your health unless you are eating hundreds of grams of the stuff daily. If all you do is put it on a sandwich then your intake is very low, and not a health concern. However there are some ridiculous websites stating that it is actually very healthy for you. Well, that's just not true. The truth is that we don't know yet - there is conflicting evidence in both directions. I'd say just keep it in moderation, or if you're concerned, swap to margarine which in this day and age (and from proper processors like Unilever's Flora) is actually pretty damn healthy for you...

What we know is that more research is necessary. We know that certain saturation profiles increase heart risk, but not all saturations are bad. We also now know that particle size may be incredibly important.

It is a fascinating topic, but an incredibly complex one...

 

[googoodoll]

DJ agreed that it might help on a LCHF diet

Good thing I'm not on one of those...

But as I say, different things work for different people.

 

[DJ...]

mister, you're disagreeing that 12 carbon bonded fatty chains is a long chain. You'll need to publish your papers to do that. That is a scientific distinction, hence why science addresses it within the realm of long chain fatty acids. There's not much to disagree with there unless you're planning on rewriting what we know, or revolutionising it...

 

[mister]

I only point this out because I want to help in this thread, if that's okay, but if you're consuming a liquid version of coconut oil then whoever is selling it to you is lying

Of course it's okay, I value your input. I personally do not consume any oils unless they are virgin, and cold pressed.

Or they've adopted interesterification into their processes, but this is highly unlikely in the coconut oil business considering the high cost of doing so...

Virgin coconut oil is so expensive as is!

It is a fascinating topic, but an incredibly complex one...

It is indeed. At the end of the day we will never agree. The subject is too complex for definitive answers. I am very health conscious and choose to eat saturated fat, including coconut oil with my eyes wide open, and it was not a hap hazard decision.

 

[DJ...]

Disagree. After rising your body is burning ketones, if you have carbs you shut down fat burning and switch to sugars. I would consume the fat first thing, and leave carbs for later in the day.

It will only burn ketones if you've run out of sugars during the night. So you'd have to have a very low sugar/carb intake a long while before going to bed for this to be helpful. You'd also need no sugars in your coffee. Also remember that dairy contains lactose which is a very simple sugar and will therefore be burnt very quickly by the body as there is little digestive process undertaken. So the cream and butter (to a lesser extent) will negate this optimal ketone burning function...

 

[DJ...]

Virgin coconut oil is so expensive as is!

Doesn't mean it's not hydrogenated. Interesterification is an expensive process to adopt and is cost effective at high volume, as experienced in this dairy industry. I highly doubt it makes financial sense to add such a large cost base to a low volume item. So while it may be expensive, definitely check it out in more depth. If it is liquid, then email them and get it in writing regarding the process. If they state that it undergoes no processing yet is liquid, then you know you've been had and it is partially hydrogenated...

It is indeed. At the end of the day we will never agree. The subject is too complex for definitive answers. I am very health conscious and choose to eat saturated fat, including coconut oil with my eyes wide open, and it was not a hap hazard decision.

I applaud that. It's a wise and informed decision. Just don't fall for the marketing at least...

 

[mister]

It will only burn ketones if you've run out of sugars during the night. So you'd have to have a very low sugar/carb intake a long while before going to bed for this to be helpful.

Agreed. This is all in the context of low carb.

You'd also need no sugars in your coffee.

I forgot that some people put sugar in coffee, ewww!

Also remember that dairy contains lactose which is a very simple sugar and will therefore be burnt very quickly by the body as there is little digestive process undertaken. So the cream and butter (to a lesser extent) will negate this optimal ketone burning function...

There is not enough lactose in cream.

I do consume some milk, but I culture it into kefir.

Again, this high fat coffee is all in the context of a low carb diet. This kind of mix of saturated fat on a diet with 'normal' carb levels is a health disaster waiting to happen. It is probably a good idea that this is emphasized, so thank you for your contribution.