Where is SA really going to end up?

[edc]

like any other african country, a corrupt dictatorship.

 

[BobbyMac]

diabolus: we are in agreement. I don't agree with the way it's been done now - as a matter of fact I am pretty appalled with working with "faces" who are there to pad the numbers but in reality do absolutely nothing. I like the white guys I work with - as I feel we respect each other. The current government is cocking things up - royally. My argument was and still is that there is a segment of the population who still wants to rule - but to rule is an approach nobody should aim for - the role of government is to serve.

 

[RichardP]

I think part of the problem is looking for a quick fix, unfortunately with the kind of structural inequalities in SA there is no effective quick fix, anything is going to take time. I think the government needs to invest massively in education and provide low interest loans and bursaries to SA citizens based on income which would assist mostly black people by virtue of demographics but not exclusively. Then put laws in place to prevent racism/discrimination of any kind, rather than merely introducing a new kind.

Education is the key... but it all costs ALOT of cash. The Govt can invest in its own people, they are all assets. I dont know any SA person that doesnt want to be educated, but as was said, it costs.

On the flip-side (conspiracy theory) The Govt doesnt want the massess of people to educated, as educated people THINK and wont tollerate the crap they are being fed by the Govt.

 

[Angelo]

The latest police report showed that most crimes in S.A were committed by non South Africans. I believe thats where our problems lie.

Claims like these fuel xenophobia, can you provide a link to that report?

 

[Syndyre]

On the flip-side (conspiracy theory) The Govt doesnt want the massess of people to educated, as educated people THINK and wont tollerate the crap they are being fed by the Govt.

That's a distinct possibility.

 

[TELESPHORE]

Claims like these fuel xenophobia, can you provide a link to that report?

I have seen that reported before, but not going to do the trouble of finding them either. You can do it on your own time to disprove it.

The following does show some reasonable support of logic in an indirect way:

https://www.fnb.co.za/economics/servlet/Economics?ID=3031


Notice:

The steady economic growth of 5% annually (ex-agriculture) is adding formal jobs, probably at a rate of some 300 000 annually.

…..

Even so, it faces a rising tide, as our domestic urbanization is probably pulling half a million newcomers to the cities annually, while African immigration is probably running at 200 000 to 300 000 annually.
Our nearly stagnant population growth from domestic sources doesn't change this picture. Urbanisation is a structural story and has 30 years to run. African immigration is also a structural reality, and although high mortality rates should constrain population gain from this source once here, there is an 800 million reservoir where the new arrivals came from.

Where are these foreigners getting work? Nowhere significantly or they dispel locals out of work. Takes no genius to figure out we are in big trouble and heading for more.

 

[Angelo]

I have seen that reported before, but not going to do the trouble of finding them either. You can do it on your own time to disprove it.

The following does show some reasonable support of logic in an indirect way:

https://www.fnb.co.za/economics/servlet/Economics?ID=3031


Notice:



Where are these foreigners getting work? Nowhere significantly or they dispel locals out of work. Takes no genius to figure out we are in big trouble and heading for more.

No that claim is a wild guess borne out of ignorance and fear with no factual basis whatsoever. Check Table 6: The nationality of arrestees on this link.

 

[TELESPHORE]

No that claim is a wild guess borne out of ignorance and fear with no factual basis whatsoever. Check Table 6: The nationality of arrestees on this link.

9 Year old STATS!!!! Get real. The table is for 1998.

 

[Syndyre]

That data's from 1998 Angelo, pretty outdated.

 

[Angelo]

9 Year old STATS!!!! Get real. The table is for 1998.

The point is that even during that time the myth was being peddled just like now and I do not think those stats have dramatically changed. You still have not provided any proof that most crime in SA is committed by foreigners(old or new)

 

[TELESPHORE]

The point is that even during that time the myth was being peddled just like now and there's no proof that those stats have dramatically changed. You still have not provided any proof (old or new)

And neither can you provide anything really to prove the opposite.
Maybe this article in 2004 shows why.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=qw1081687141424B265

When things are all of a sudden hidden then it is easy to deny.

Now please explain how we can accommodate 200,000 to 300,000 immigrants from Africa if we can only create 300,000 jobs annually.

Tell us what you think these people do to keep alive humm?

 

[Angelo]

And neither can you provide anything really to prove the opposite.
Maybe this article in 2004 shows why.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=qw1081687141424B265

When things are all of a sudden hidden then it is easy to deny.

Now please explain how we can accommodate 200,000 to 300,000 immigrants from Africa if we can only create 300,000 jobs annually.

Tell us what you think these people do to keep alive humm?

I'm arguing based on statistical data (old doesn't necessarily equal irrelevent) whereas you are relying on speculation.

"Xenophobia is definitely increasing ... in the post 1994-era there was a massive inflow from all parts of Africa. Xenophobia started manifesting itself but excluded those who came from Europe due to the classic apartheid stereotyping, which saw whites as people who bring in skills, money and investment and the others as threats."

"The common myth is that Nigerians are into drugs and prostitution, Zimbabweans are responsible for cash heists while Mozambicans stage housebreaks," he said.

"There is no statistical proof of this. Official records show that only three percent of South Africa's prison population comprise non-nationals."

 

[TELESPHORE]

I'm arguing based on statistical data (old doesn't necessarily equal irrelevent) whereas you are relying on speculation.

Just answer my questions. Old data is useless and you know it so stop beating around the bush or keep quiet.

 

[TELESPHORE]

And now you are speculating that old does not mean irrelevant.

 

[Rikus]

Oooo a catfight.

 

[TELESPHORE]

Oooo a catfight.

Naw - just getting the answers aligned to the questions. I don't do cat stuff - dog person.

 

[Angelo]

Telesphore according to the Dept. of Correctional Services there are 160 712 prisoners in South Africa of which ONLY 5618 are foreigners.

So provide stats to the contrary or keep quite because so far you have provided nothing but personal opinion and unfounded speculation!

 

[RompelStompel]

Where is S.A. going to end up - I don't know.

Better place for all South African citizens is my hope.

 

[Darth Garth]

Telesphore according to the Dept. of Correctional Services there are 160 712 prisoners in South Africa of which ONLY 5618 are foreigners.

So provide stats to the contrary or keep quite because so far you have provided nothing but personal opinion and unfounded speculation!

Nice putdown there .

 

[Tanarri]

Telesphore according to the Dept. of Correctional Services there are 160 712 prisoners in South Africa of which ONLY 5618 are foreigners.

So provide stats to the contrary or keep quite because so far you have provided nothing but personal opinion and unfounded speculation!

Angelo I can't believe that anyone on this earth can be so damn naive.

Again someone is quoting statistics that is totally irrevalent to the situation at hand. And the police denies that any such statistics exist.

Let's see:

Foreign criminals are responsible for a large proportion of the serious crimes committed in South Africa, according to an article in Rapport on Sunday.

Thousands of illegal immigrants are convicted every year in South Africa for crimes such as robbery, murder, rape and drug-trafficking, a study from the Strategic Studies Institute at the University of Pretoria has found.

A professor at the institute, Mike Hough, said almost a quarter of the cases in the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court in January 2004 involved foreigners, and the number was increasing all the time.

He said most of the foreign criminals were Zimbabweans, who were generally involved in bank robberies, fraud and drug-related offences. Nigerians were the second most common culprits, often for drug-related crimes. Mozambicans came third, convicted of robbery and fraud.

Police were not able to verify these results because at present the South African Police Service (SAPS) did not maintain that sort of data, said Captain Ronnie Naidoo, national police spokesperson.

"Unfortunately I can't give you an answer. We don't keep statistics on foreigners," he said on Sunday.

He said police did record the nationality of the criminals they arrested, but it was not collated.

The last study done by the SAPS was in 1994, which found 12 670 illegal immigrants involved in serious crimes.

Although they are often sent back to their countries of origin, many end up in South African prisons, said Hough.

Hough estimated that at present R344 458 a day was spent keeping foreigners in prison.

He said his study was not trying to increase xenophobia in South Africa, but that there were signs of "foreign involvement in the South African crime scene". - Sapa

The SAPS: "we are either too dumb or too lazy to compile these statistics" OR
"we prefer to keep people in the dark so that they can't have a concrete reason for giving us more work of keeping illegal immigrants out of the country"

So, many criminals get sent back to Zimbabwe and Mozambique and later they just come back.

The government DOES NOT WANT YOU TO KNOW THESE THINGS.