Wug Experience

[protzkrog]

Protz, IF this is a community network and QoS did not do what it was supposed to do, lets put it up to the community to take a vote.
Not a quick poll that is closed within a day.

We communicate it to all users via various communication mediums and allow everybody sufficient time to vote.

from Tuesday QOS has been working awesomely well

Speak to blaze so he can take a look on WB and RR whats wrong the QOS there

you will find blaze on IRC

 

[stiffxiii]

this sounds better. talking like adults now and making suggestions/solutions.

I cannot wait to help.

Thanks guys

stiff

 

[francoistk]

I spent the better part of an hour now catching up to what was said in this thread.
And I can see a load of acusations being thrown around between people.
I am a member for just a bit over 5 months now, I am also on the admin team.

Yeah I currently have a ****ty connection speed due to the sites in my area having some bad links but that hopefully will be rectified when I get home today and can go climb up and do a proper alignment on the 1 backbone link. I just happen to be in the moot area, and am trying hard to get more backbone links running.

To some of the people here that say they don't want to connect just because some people here is complaining about issues. If you just want to connect to download stuff then don't, but if you want to learn al lot and are up for a challenge, then why not join and start helping improving the WUG.

The just something on QOS, yeah if you remove it yeah some stuff might work a bit faster but I can promise you everyone will be much worse off than with it running.

 

[DaVirus]

You can not expect the people that work on highsites, climb 30m towers, dig holes in rock for tower foundations, spend their weekends on highsites, etc, just to be all smiley faced and happy when someone that has never done anything for the wug comes in and complains a lot.

Dawie, I don't agree as I did the ALL the above by myself for Wonderboom and a few users.
I asked for assistance from other wuggers and got help from only a neighbor and a friend, yet I did not complain.
I climb the tower at least twice a week to clean off any waste from birds and to seal all the connections.

I accept the responsibility of maintaining the structure, signals and providing stable power.
Unfortunately, I cannot help anybody with the slow or no-response and here I rely on the admins experience.

 

[protzkrog]

it would be a good thing to be on IRC more and attend wugmeets, become part of the community, communication is key.

 

[DenSweep]

Protz, IF this is a community network and QoS did not do what it was supposed to do, lets put it up to the community to take a vote.
Not a quick poll that is closed within a day.

We communicate it to all users via various communication mediums and allow everybody sufficient time to vote.

Agreed Davirus, but the mediums available to the WUG is basically, IRC, our Wiki and email. The problem is, not everyone bothers to read said mediums and therein lies the rub. We have had numurous wugmeets with the intent on getting people together physically to discuss important issues relating to PTAWUG and then we get maybe a 100 guys there. And these gatherings are advertised on the IRC and Wiki, so people CAN NOT complain they didn't know, because if you are connected, you should know. And these are advertised well in advance with place stating whether you can make it or not. And even people who state that they can't make it, the numbers still don't come close to the total number of wuggers.

Now I ask, what do you propose we do then? Because even if we make the polls on the wiki, not everyone bothers to read it. People don't attend wugmeets. And trust me, wugmeets anyone and everyone gets their say. I've attend the meets and if you didn't get a chance to voice your opinion, it's your own fault then for not speaking up. Seriously, how do you want us to reach all the wuggers? Only so much can be done by the admin team, if the rest of the WUG doesn't play along, what do you want them to do? If you ask me, the admins are damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they just go ahead and implement what they think will work, people moan. If they do nothing waiting for input from the wuggers, they are moaned at. WHAT MUST THEY DO???

As to the QOS vote proposal, maybe we can get someone with some knowledge on the subject here to explain the pros and cons about it, before we ask people to vote on it.

 

[DaVirus]

QOS has been implemented on this network for a very long time.

QOS "v2" was implemented in April 2009 and QOS "v1" was implemented LONG before that. We are currently implementing QOS "v3" (which only really went into production in the last 2 weeks) to address all the shortfalls in "v2".

On a network with our amount of traffic, QOS must be applied to keep services like routing, DNS, http, management of highsites, etc up and running. Put it to a vote if you want to but I doubt you have been on the network at a time that QOS has not been in place.

The network has grown too large for the current routing design and this is probably the main reason for bad performance.

The problems started end of August 2009. At the time I was advised by another admin that new QoS rules were implemented.
And I have mentioned it on every available page on the wiki, forum, irc etc..
But it was easier to ignore a plea for help and focus on sourcing new users and donations.

Nobody assisted, not to mention, help could have been provided remotely, I did not demand site visits or anything.

I eventually gave up and decided that it was not worth my while until I was forwarded this post.

People are frustrated and believing that the admins have no idea what they are doing. (Well, only a few, NOT all admins)

I am really tired of all this ****.

 

[francoistk]

People are frustrated and believing that the admins have no idea what they are doing. (Well, only a few, NOT all admins)

Then they should start helping fixing the problem.
The biggest thing here I think is that those who are frustrated does not understand the problem or are not willing to understand, they only see their perceived problem and start blaming people while this problem might be part of a much larger problem that is being worked on.

 

[DenSweep]

DaVirus, th0rn said in that quote you did, new QOS of service has only been implemented in the last two weeks, so maybe have a look again. And if there are still issues, speak to Blaze about it on IRC. Mine was just as crappy, but after asking and speaking to Blaze, he has pretty much fixed my site. I even managed to play some CSS about a week ago, after having had some terrible pings for abt a month before then. So they are definitely improving, just give it time and a bit of patience.

 

[protzkrog]

The problems started end of August 2009. At the time I was advised by another admin that new QoS rules were implemented.
And I have mentioned it on every available page on the wiki, forum, irc etc..
But it was easier to ignore a plea for help and focus on sourcing new users and donations.

Nobody assisted, not to mention, help could have been provided remotely, I did not demand site visits or anything.

I eventually gave up and decided that it was not worth my while until I was forwarded this post.

People are frustrated and believing that the admins have no idea what they are doing. (Well, only a few, NOT all admins)

I am really tired of all this ****.

why have you never applied to be a admin ? then you can help fix all the problems.

 

[vaalpens]

sorry to hear about your bad experience, since the new QOS has been implement, im not getting timeouts any more, and during non gaming hours, im downloading at 1800KB/s.

We DO need QOS , we cant shut it down, there is 600+ users connected, you cant just throw everything in the pot and expect it to work, certain protocols and ip's need to be prioritized, for the wug to work.

 

[Sausageship]

Them and us is just separated by a short page of rules you have to read and thats it. It takes about 15 minutes to become an admin if you ask at night when all the admins are online.

Below straight from the WIKI is our admins rules.

Duties

* Ensure that all the highsites are properly set up
* Assign ips to new users
* Have admin rights on all highsites
* Make the network run as efficiently and fast as possible by implementing QOS
* Always be open to suggestions or other issues on the network
* Keeping the open, community, transparent model of operation of PTAWUG alive

They will not have the following responsibilities or duties:

* Have any power to make decisions that affect the wug as a whole
* Maintaining servers or any services on the wug
* Deciding where donations go
* Physically maintaining highsites
* Provide any guarantee of service

So that's exactly what we have to go by. To be honest most admins can only do the basics. eg. Turn off nstreme on a flapping link. Add a route to a highsite for a new user.

We are all pretty much made up of users that want to be involved and improve things. Its not like we actually separate ourselves from the rest of the users and have these private discussions on how we are gonna implement this QOS system that will make everyone download slowly.

In some instances we have a responsibility to the users that connect to a Highsite To try to maintain a High Quality connection. So we implement rate limits for users with poor signal. So that we can keep things like Nstreme on that improves users speeds. It might piss off one or two guys on a sector because they need to go and climb up a ladder to align their grid but it pretty much ensures that we can keep everything nice and fast.

The thing is though we are bombarded with messages from people who says think like "my download slow" etc etc. But the problem is so many people have a problem with reading that you kinda build up a resistance to the general whining of people. Where if they actually read the IRC topic or the front page of the wiki page. Or was on irc for more than the 1 minute it took them to type "?? bitches" and to find my nickname in the list and msg me. We would actually be able to differentiate "real" network problems from the general things. But generally speaking people refuse to educate themselves and almost in desperation we become sarcastic and short in our responses.

So yes more capable admins would help the cause. People actually asking other people on their HighSite "Hey have you also been experiencing this problem?" would also help. If a user comes to me and says "Hey, Me and 3 other guys on Highsite X have all been having this problem could you maybe have a look?" I would be happy to help because it means you have almost done half the work for me and i can actually see this is a real problem related to that Highsite and i can take user error out of the equation.

The other thing that is interesting and listed in as one of the admin duties is the one that admins arnt actually responsible for physically Maintaining HighSites. And on more than one occasion its ended up that the only people at the Install or upgrade were admins.

RouterOS version upgrade also happened about 2-3 weeks ago, that could also be related to the instability of the network. The thing is though its a handful of a guys responsible

PS.
Let me just clear up why we take things so personally. When you work on this network and you physically maintain it and you spend days configuring everything and some guy comes to you and insults what you have built. You are going to take it personally. Koos might have tried to take a very modest approach to his post trying to inform people. But he made it personal with all his little comments. So if you have a problem with people taking these comments personally adjust you comfort level.

 

[I am Penguin]

marine1, in which area are you?

Maybe send him an PM?

 

[I am Penguin]

I saw somewhere some mention that a highsite becomes the property of the WUG, can someone explain please?

 

[protzkrog]

all equipment donated towards the wug becomes the property of the wug.

 

[I am Penguin]

all equipment donated towards the wug becomes the property of the wug.

I am asking about setting up a highsite, not donated to the wug as such thus investing the equipment as backbone for improving the wug and maintaining it.

 

[zamicro]

PTAWUG is nie n besigheid nie.
PTAWUG is n community netwerk, dit is die COMMUNITY (elke user) se verantwoordelikheid om die netwerk uit te brei, links te upgrade, stabiel te maak.
As mense ongelukkig is, moet hulle iets daaromtrent DOEN en nie sit en wag dat iemand anders dit doen nie.
PTAWUG word nie op 'n besigheidsmodel geoperate nie, omdat dit dit nie besigheid is nie.

En die kommunikasie - daar is IRC en daar is die wiki, alle nodige info is daar op, mense moet net lees, wat moet 'n mens meer doen om info by users uit te kry, dit is tog hulle verantwoordelikheid om te lees.

"victimized or identified as moaners." - really, geviktimiseer ? lol.

30-50, waar kom jy aan daai nommer ?

Die users wat unhappy is met die performance is welkom om nog highsites op die kruine van die rante te soek sodat ons nog links (veral uit die Moot area) kan opsit.

Performance degredation : daar kom baie nuwe users, highsites hou nie by nie. Ek challenge al die users om nuwe locations te soek vir sites en te donate daarvoor, om oor te gaan tot fisiese aksie. Hulle is ook welkom om betrokke te raak by die administrasie - as hulle weet wat hulle doen. Daar is 'n highsite planning page op die wiki met al die planne op, users kan daar byvoeg, comment, etc.

Dit help absoluut niks om net ander mense te blameer vir die problem nie, enigste manier om die wug te verbeter is nog highsites, beter links, meer sectors, dit gaan nie gebeur as mense net op hulle gatte sit en kla nie.

Thanks Dawie. This is a very mature post. (Unlike some others that said if you are not happy then take your stuff and go because we do not want people like you...)

I really think that you have to understand that it is a COMMUNITY network. If you are unhappy about something, you can either wait until someone else fixes the problem (which might not happen at all) or you can learn about it and fix it yourself.

 

[Atti2de]

Thanks Dawie. This is a very mature post. (Unlike some others that said if you are not happy then take your stuff and go because we do not want people like you...)

I really think that you have to understand that it is a COMMUNITY network. If you are unhappy about something, you can either wait until someone else fixes the problem (which might not happen at all) or you can learn about it and fix it yourself.

zamicro,

you hit the nail on the head right there.

 

[solmed]

I have to agree with some of the sentiments raised by the OP.

I contacted romeoos in private chat today.After initial greetings I was completely ignored by him.

I tried to engage the assistance of other admins by posting in the main chat window.

He then promised to assist me but after waiting for several hours no assistance was received.

I am still without connection as I do not have the new ips needed to connect.

 

[protzkrog]

please remember that admins have jobs, lives and families. wug duties come after that.
they do not have access to the wug from their places of work.
thus the best time to ask for assistance is after 5 in the afternoons or later.