Zuma tapes a 'secret'

This all just feels so counter intuitive... :( Wouldn't you normally jump at the chance to clear your name? And if you can't do that (not due to lack of evidence, but not releasing evidence) aren't you essentially implicating yourself? Doesn't Zuma understand this???

I'm am curious though (seeing as Zuma is not a speaker in the tapes); what could other people be saying about Zuma that would be soooooooooo bad if the public found out?
 
This all just feels so counter intuitive... :( Wouldn't you normally jump at the chance to clear your name? And if you can't do that (not due to lack of evidence, but not releasing evidence) aren't you essentially implicating yourself? Doesn't Zuma understand this???

I'm am curious though (seeing as Zuma is not a speaker in the tapes); what could other people be saying about Zuma that would be soooooooooo bad if the public found out?

Well, back in 2009, JZ's attorney alleged that the tapes contained evidence of political interference in the decision to charge JZ. and therefore the NPA withdrew the charges against him.

People are now speculating that the tapes actually does not contain evidence that are damning enough for the charges to have been withdrawn.

So to answer your question, JZ cannot clear his name cos the tapes probably does not contain that kind of evidence.

What was on the tapes that were so bad? IIRC, the bit that the public was told was that the tapes contained conversations between people who were discussing the timing of laying the charges against JZ.
 
What was on the tapes that were so bad? IIRC, the bit that the public was told was that the tapes contained conversations between people who were discussing the timing of laying the charges against JZ.

Not a good enough reason to drop charges in my opinion. Give him his day in court.
 
Well, back in 2009, JZ's attorney alleged that the tapes contained evidence of political interference in the decision to charge JZ. and therefore the NPA withdrew the charges against him.

People are now speculating that the tapes actually does not contain evidence that are damning enough for the charges to have been withdrawn.

So to answer your question, JZ cannot clear his name cos the tapes probably does not contain that kind of evidence.
This just reinforces what I said. By not clearing himself, he's implicating himself.

What was on the tapes that were so bad? IIRC, the bit that the public was told was that the tapes contained conversations between people who were discussing the timing of laying the charges against JZ.
I'm not following you. Political interference was the reason the case was dropped, the tapes are just the "proof". So nothing the public didn't already 'know'.
 
This just reinforces what I said. By not clearing himself, he's implicating himself.


I'm not following you. Political interference was the reason the case was dropped, the tapes are just the "proof". So nothing the public didn't already 'know'.

1. He is unable to clear himself. He has nothing at his disposal to do so.
2. I do not understand the 2nd part of your post. The public only came to know about it after JZ's attorneys made the allegations.
 
2. I do not understand the 2nd part of your post. The public only came to know about it after JZ's attorneys made the allegations.
Wait, am I missing something here? The charges against Zuma were dropped due to the recorded conversations between McCarthy and Ngcuka which "tainted" the process, right? And this is what's believed to be on the tapes, right? But still, regardless of when it came to public knowledge (the reason for dropping charges or the supposed content of the tapes), the tapes are still only conversations between McCarthy and Ngcuka (supposedly). So why the fuss in releasing them?

[hope this is better - I'm having trouble articulating myself today :) ]
 
Wait, am I missing something here? The charges against Zuma were dropped due to the recorded conversations between McCarthy and Ngcuka which "tainted" the process, right? And this is what's believed to be on the tapes, right? But still, regardless of when it came to public knowledge (the reason for dropping charges or the supposed content of the tapes), the tapes are still only conversations between McCarthy and Ngcuka (supposedly). So why the fuss in releasing them?

[hope this is better - I'm having trouble articulating myself today :) ]

I suppose the "fuss" in releasing them is that they do not actually contain information as damning as was alleged by JZ's lawyers.
 
Wait, am I missing something here? The charges against Zuma were dropped due to the recorded conversations between McCarthy and Ngcuka which "tainted" the process, right? And this is what's believed to be on the tapes, right? But still, regardless of when it came to public knowledge (the reason for dropping charges or the supposed content of the tapes), the tapes are still only conversations between McCarthy and Ngcuka (supposedly). So why the fuss in releasing them?

[hope this is better - I'm having trouble articulating myself today :) ]

You make a valid point however to rebut, why the fuss about keeping them secret to this extent? I mean, defying a high court order is hardly petty, why this massive effort to keep them under wraps?
There are way to many if's and but's in this one, why the evidence was relinquished, why the lawyer has it, why he has not just simply been arrested as with any other citizen for withholding evidence and obstruction of justice?

Surely if all this shows is a conspiracy by the gents mentioned above whats the big deal.

Honestly, it didn't happen until the proof is presented.

Also interested to know why McCarthy and Ngucka have had zero to say about these tapes.
 
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Also interested to know why McCarthy and Ngucka have had zero to say about these tapes.

What would you have wanted / expected them to say ?

Here is Ngcuka's statement. You can hardly say he did not speak out!

http://blogs.timeslive.co.za/hartley/2009/03/26/ngcuka-zuma-has-spy-tapes-of-me-full-text/

This is the text of a statement given to The Times by former National Director of Public Prosecutions, Bulelani Ngcuka, on his discovery that tapes of conversations he had were in the possession of Jacob Zuma’s legal team.

I have been advised – and believe – that monitoring and interception of telephone conversations between various individuals, including myself, has been conducted by a State agency. I have also been informed that the lawyers of Mr Jacob Zuma have such recordings in their possession. On the face of it, both the interception and monitoring as well as the possession of such material by private individuals is illegal.

It is a matter of grave concern that in a democratic state – which has an entrenched Bill of Rights, which amongst others, safeguards the rights of the citizens to privacy – you could have surveillance by a State agency and the product of that surveillance be made available to the lawyers of an accused person in a criminal trial.

I would expect the law enforcement agencies to investigate this conduct.

If it is suggested – as I believe that it is – that I was involved in any conversations, the objective of which was to manipulate the National Prosecuting Authority or use it as a tool to frustrate Mr Zuma’s ambition to occupy the highest office in the land by prosecuting him, I am confident that if any authentic recordal of my conversations with whomsoever is produced, no evidence would be found that would implicate me in such a conspiracy. For the record, I am not – and have never been – part of any conspiracy against Mr Zuma.

It is a matter of public record that when I in my capacity as NDPP, had the opportunity to prosecute Mr Zuma, I declined to do so.

Should such allegations be repeated in a court of law or other legal forum, I am confident that no wrong doing will be found against me. Indeed, I stand ready to refute and expose them as false, malicious and defamatory.
 
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They are being labelled plotting against the Zuma, a mere counter or defence, but nadda
 
Good show, thanks

This really just makes it worse for Hulley/Zuma.
According to Ngcuka the recordings were illegal, and he is confident he has not said or done anything to implicate him in a plot at the time against Zuma.

So the NPA drops charges based on illegally obtained evidence (which btw is not admissible in court) and then refuses to show it to anyone else while those implicated in the plot (at least one) denies any part of it.

Its insane!
 
Good show, thanks

This really just makes it worse for Hulley/Zuma.
According to Ngcuka the recordings were illegal, and he is confident he has not said or done anything to implicate him in a plot at the time against Zuma.

So the NPA drops charges based on illegally obtained evidence (which btw is not admissible in court) and then refuses to show it to anyone else while those implicated in the plot (at least one) denies any part of it.

Its insane!

I think that is why there was such an outcry at the time that the NPA dropped the charges against JZ and it was obvious then that he would become president.

Insane is a good description.

And THAT is why he has allies/comrades in all the key positions - to prevent charges against him from oever being re-instituted.
 
And THAT is why he has allies/comrades in all the key positions - to prevent charges against him from oever being re-instituted.
I remember a funny comment on another forum; something along the lines of 'There has to be a copy! Someone please leak it -- this is what WikiLeaks and the internet is for.' :)

I guess the handover to Huley is the biggest mystery. If I have it correct, Zuma's team had tapes (illegally obtained) and as these were not submissible to court the NIA provided legal ones of the same conversation (on which the decission was made). Now nevermind giving evidence to an accused's legal team; why give him tapes (and the transcript while we're at it) which he already has???

I second Sneeky's call of insanity.
 
If I have it correct, Zuma's team had tapes (illegally obtained) and as these were not submissible to court the NIA provided legal ones of the same conversation (on which the decission was made).

I am not aware of this. Do you maybe have a link? This case has so many kinks.
 
By similar logic any one accused of anything can refuse to hand over evidence as its "secret and not for public consumption"
 
Originally read about it in a piece by Prof. de Vos: Why the desperation to hide the Zuma spy tapes from us?
The quote by Mokotedi Mpshe (acting NDPP at that time) is further linked to The Times, but I can't open that from work.

This bit is Greek to me:
The NPA inexplicably transcribed all the tapes (which at the time the NPA claimed to have obtained from the National Intelligence Agency – not from Zuma or his lawyers) and then handed them over to Michael Hulley, President Jacob Zuma’s personal lawyer. Hulley is now refusing to hand back these tapes to the NPA, apparently on the basis that the tapes form part of the confidential submissions made to the NPA before charges were dropped against Zuma.

Does the NPA still have the transscriptions? Why can it not be forced to just hand over that ?
 
Does the NPA still have the transscriptions? Why can it not be forced to just hand over that ?
Your guess is as good as mine. I do however get the impression that the tapes are a bit of a hot-potato-issue. First the NIA and then the NPA -- everyone seems just too happy to NOT have them anymore (except Hulley that is).

The fishyness is strong with this one.
 
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