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Question of the Day: Do you bet on sports?
360 hard drive.
- Thread starter saffakanera
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Dolby
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Look at my post about connecting a HDD directly. Everyone said rather stream the content from a PC (using its on HDD).
Directly you lose transcoding and the ability to play certain files/codecs. Straight from PS3 users' mouths :/
And he's right about transferring the data - quite a mission. Direct HDD or media on the console is stupid - so why do you need massive HDDs?
Directly you lose transcoding and the ability to play certain files/codecs. Straight from PS3 users' mouths :/
And he's right about transferring the data - quite a mission. Direct HDD or media on the console is stupid - so why do you need massive HDDs?
saffakanera
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heh, thanks for all the views guys, I think im going to hang on to my 256mb card for now, saving up for a Wii for xmas, so I can complete my console collection 
Yea it seems that the hdd is pretty mandatory, how are the games when installed to hdd? Ive noticed that games like borderlands often loads a level without the textures yet, and takes about 10 seconds to load them, getting some frequent little jitters *freezing* when playing as well, must be because its being read from the disc? fail!
Yea it seems that the hdd is pretty mandatory, how are the games when installed to hdd? Ive noticed that games like borderlands often loads a level without the textures yet, and takes about 10 seconds to load them, getting some frequent little jitters *freezing* when playing as well, must be because its being read from the disc? fail!
saffakanera
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oh and PS: WHATUP MAESTRO!!!!!
heh, thanks for all the views guys, I think im going to hang on to my 256mb card for now, saving up for a Wii for xmas, so I can complete my console collection
Yea it seems that the hdd is pretty mandatory, how are the games when installed to hdd? Ive noticed that games like borderlands often loads a level without the textures yet, and takes about 10 seconds to load them, getting some frequent little jitters *freezing* when playing as well, must be because its being read from the disc? fail!
You should have hit The Glen in Joburg to get a Wii for R1500
RPG_Fan
Senior Member
Thats your view. Even PC's have game installs and they have the fastest drives around.
This comment is not intended to start any flamewar (lol, generally is when it starts with a disclaimer....heck, already feels warm in here, think there's been a spark)..
We all know that the x-box and 360 architecture is basically a 're-packaged' PC...Not a bad thing for many reasons...the most obvious is that it can exploit all the strenghts of a pc which is flexibility, media rich features and upgrading while retaining the fundamental strenght of a console, that it is standard ....MS has failed on both accounts and if you got a 360, you should be more upset with them than any Sony fanboy....
To expand on this :
1. Console Strenght : (Fundamental) - Standard experience : Provide a standard ce device with similar experiences of all users. The # of SKU's totally obliterates this rule, as said, some don't have hdd's, some no HD output, some have no wireless controller support, etc.
Some people buy the console exclusively at price point (e.g. parents buying for kids), but the gamer's experience is impacted (e.g. no DLC for you, no d/l of XBL games, no d/l of full games, no custom music when you play games, etc).
2. Console Strenght : Stability - Consoles should be stable, has my PS3 froze on me..YES, a few times...has it rebooted/crashed...NOPE...but MS having a 50% failure rate is just unaccpetable, why ? Because it's based on existing (PC) architecture and they rushed to market to gain market share and $$$$$...now they have a good market share, their reputation seems intact because no one is really holding them accountable in a serious way and they happy to go along merrily exploiting this market.
2. PC Strenght : Flexibility of a PC : NOPE, only as flexible as M$ wanted to make it so they can get $$$. So 360 owners can't upgrade their HDD's with any 2.5" drive, cannot use any 3.5" external drive as an addon...SONY DOES (has to be FAT32, but that's no problem...i got a 1tb external fat32 drive and would be dirt cheap to upgrade to a 300gb internal 2.5" sata drive)...add the expensive wireless adapter and expensive memory storage devicese and you gotta be upset with M$.
3. PC Strenght : Media Rich - Good try, should have been better considering the X-Box set a nice precedent...can't be media rich if you don't have HD optical disc support, HD outputs (earlier models), no hdd (music or video), etc.
I'm actually very much a pro-windows person even though I had various linux os's as well...as a pc gamer that dabbles with music software, graphics software and web development software, windows suited my needs perfectly....I wouldn't be able to write a post this long about things i don't like about windows...so I do support MS, but with the x-box, they just milking the gaming community and as the largest media consumers in teh world, we should hold them to higher standards...which is what i'm doing by refusing to buy one! Having bought one, entitles you to demand that they do the right things...you going to be the only one that suffers in the end...i'm getting a PS4...
We all know that the x-box and 360 architecture is basically a 're-packaged' PC...Not a bad thing for many reasons...the most obvious is that it can exploit all the strenghts of a pc which is flexibility, media rich features and upgrading while retaining the fundamental strenght of a console, that it is standard ....MS has failed on both accounts and if you got a 360, you should be more upset with them than any Sony fanboy....
To expand on this :
1. Console Strenght : (Fundamental) - Standard experience : Provide a standard ce device with similar experiences of all users. The # of SKU's totally obliterates this rule, as said, some don't have hdd's, some no HD output, some have no wireless controller support, etc.
Some people buy the console exclusively at price point (e.g. parents buying for kids), but the gamer's experience is impacted (e.g. no DLC for you, no d/l of XBL games, no d/l of full games, no custom music when you play games, etc).
2. Console Strenght : Stability - Consoles should be stable, has my PS3 froze on me..YES, a few times...has it rebooted/crashed...NOPE...but MS having a 50% failure rate is just unaccpetable, why ? Because it's based on existing (PC) architecture and they rushed to market to gain market share and $$$$$...now they have a good market share, their reputation seems intact because no one is really holding them accountable in a serious way and they happy to go along merrily exploiting this market.
2. PC Strenght : Flexibility of a PC : NOPE, only as flexible as M$ wanted to make it so they can get $$$. So 360 owners can't upgrade their HDD's with any 2.5" drive, cannot use any 3.5" external drive as an addon...SONY DOES (has to be FAT32, but that's no problem...i got a 1tb external fat32 drive and would be dirt cheap to upgrade to a 300gb internal 2.5" sata drive)...add the expensive wireless adapter and expensive memory storage devicese and you gotta be upset with M$.
3. PC Strenght : Media Rich - Good try, should have been better considering the X-Box set a nice precedent...can't be media rich if you don't have HD optical disc support, HD outputs (earlier models), no hdd (music or video), etc.
I'm actually very much a pro-windows person even though I had various linux os's as well...as a pc gamer that dabbles with music software, graphics software and web development software, windows suited my needs perfectly....I wouldn't be able to write a post this long about things i don't like about windows...so I do support MS, but with the x-box, they just milking the gaming community and as the largest media consumers in teh world, we should hold them to higher standards...which is what i'm doing by refusing to buy one! Having bought one, entitles you to demand that they do the right things...you going to be the only one that suffers in the end...i'm getting a PS4...
Dolby
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Similar to some PS3s with backwards compatibility (some not) , some with SACD support (some not) , some that can bitstream (some not) , some with an SD card reader (some not) , some with rumble controls (some not), some with small HDD (some with large), some phat (some slim), some 4 x USBs (some less)... ? Would be great if all users if all users could share the same experience ...
As I've said, it totally depends on the indivdual. I suspect many peole connect it to their PC's and store their media there. I do agree with a HDD - I just don't believe the size is a selling point. I've never used more than 20GB myself.
They have a 3% failure rate -similar to the PS3. Unless of course you want to live in the past ... ? Anyway - I reckon te failure rate was more like 30% ... and with the entended warranty, who cares? People got a new console in a day and playing by the evening. Others waited 5-8 working days.
There was a period where - because of the liquidation of MI - delays were long and backlogged ... but that's all sorted now. And as you said, the strategy worked : the 2nd box is outselling PS3 by 10 million units and they have massive market share. I bet Sony was worried at one stage ; you can't deny.
Agree with the proprietary - and I agree that MS should change this :/ We can use FAT32 external as well, right? So we too can get the cheap 1TB? I haven't tried it - but sure it works this way.
I guess the expensive wireless may be because it's 4x quicker than the PS3's? I'm not sure - no need for one. Anyway - jump back a year ... couldn't we get the Xbox and wireless for less than a PS3?
Since you're back in the past - I'll go back there as well : the Xbox cost 1/2 the price to a PS3 then. Similar to saying 'a Ford Fiesta ST isn't really a performance car as it can't even keep up with the Audi A3 2.0T'
Update your arguments and perhaps I'll start taking them seriously
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semiautomatix
Honorary Master
Similar to some PS3s with backwards compatibility (some not) , some with SACD support (some not) , some that can bitstream (some not) , some with an SD card reader (some not) , some with rumble controls (some not), some with small HDD (some with large), some phat (some slim), some 4 x USBs (some less)... ? Would be great if all users if all users could share the same experience ...
As I've said, it totally depends on the indivdual. I suspect many peole connect it to their PC's and store their media there. I do agree with a HDD - I just don't believe the size is a selling point. I've never used more than 20GB myself.
They have a 3% failure rate -similar to the PS3. Unless of course you want to live in the past ... ? Anyway - I reckon te failure rate was more like 30% ... and with the entended warranty, who cares? People got a new console in a day and playing by the evening. Others waited 5-8 working days.
There was a period where - because of the liquidation of MI - delays were long and backlogged ... but that's all sorted now. And as you said, the strategy worked : the 2nd box is outselling PS3 by 10 million units and they have massive market share. I bet Sony was worried at one stage ; you can't deny.
Agree with the proprietary - and I agree that MS should change this :/ We can use FAT32 external as well, right? So we too can get the cheap 1TB? I haven't tried it - but sure it works this way.
I guess the expensive wireless may be because it's 4x quicker than the PS3's? I'm not sure - no need for one. Anyway - jump back a year ... couldn't we get the Xbox and wireless for less than a PS3?
Since you're back in the past - I'll go back there as well : the Xbox cost 1/2 the price to a PS3 then. Similar to saying 'a Ford Fiesta ST isn't really a performance car as it can't even keep up with the Audi A3 2.0T'
Update your arguments and perhaps I'll start taking them seriously
Actually more around 23%, I had an interesting link somewhere about console failures from 2007-present. The PS3 had a 12% failure rate, not 3% as mentioned about. The Wii won with a single digit failure percentage, don't remember what though.
maestro_za
Expert Member
@Lemon369
Your argument is flawed.
All Xbox 360s have wireless controller support.
A Silver account allows you free access to Live updates which includes backwards compatibility with a large library of original Xbox games (a great boon for those of us that did not own the original Xbox -- never officially launched in SA) and the divx/xvid update for watching those files burnt on disc or on an external storage device.
HDMI output is well documented, 2005-2006 retail models don't have it and 2007 onwards do. You can use component cables, official or 3rd party for HD output.
My 2006 model works fine with component cables.
In fact there are tons of 3rd party accessories that brings the cost down on the official products which includes a wireless networking adapter. 3rd party memory is another issue but there are ways to get cheap storage.
Stability and the 50% failure is once again almost exclusively the preserve of the well documented revisions with the design flaw (Xenon to Zephyr models). I have a 2006 model that works perfectly and it's been played hard over the past 2 years.
FAT32 support with external USB hard drives and flash drives for all Xbox 360 consoles.
Expense is a subjective thing, look at the price of official Dual Shock controllers and other peripherals for the PS3 ... pricy indeed. Console manufacturers will always hit us hard with that as that is how they make continuous income.
True, you do not have the option of changing the 2.5 inch internal HDD yourself, but there are cheaper options for the 360 like the HDDHacker hack for using a Western Digital HDD or import from eBay or other online stores to pay less than the profit shafting local retail price.
The optical disc issue is more to do with the fact that Sony owns the patent to Blu-Ray in my opinion. M$ would have had to cough up big time to have it as their primary optical drive ... and they would have most probably sat with the Blu-Ray lens failure rate that the PS3 suffers from (I see it first hand as I repair consoles for a living).
The real issue is Live. We have to register as being from another region which means no local pricing for all the Gold membership content.
But of course that only affects those that have Internet access. Many clients I deal with don't have Internet at home so the online capabilities of next-gen consoles doesn't figure much in their day to day living.
In any case, at the end of the day the consumer weighs up what they need from a console.
If they want all the bells and whistles and perhaps have a long affinity with Sony then a PS3 would be what they purchase.
If they want an alternative from a company that is taking the fight to the traditional power house of the Playstation brand, then a Xbox 360 is what they purchase.
I own all 3 next-gen consoles, 360; Wii and PS3 as there are games I want to play across all the platforms. The platform specific game releases forces lovers of games to do this.
If you want to fasten your flag to one mast ... so be it!
Your argument is flawed.
All Xbox 360s have wireless controller support.
A Silver account allows you free access to Live updates which includes backwards compatibility with a large library of original Xbox games (a great boon for those of us that did not own the original Xbox -- never officially launched in SA) and the divx/xvid update for watching those files burnt on disc or on an external storage device.
HDMI output is well documented, 2005-2006 retail models don't have it and 2007 onwards do. You can use component cables, official or 3rd party for HD output.
My 2006 model works fine with component cables.
In fact there are tons of 3rd party accessories that brings the cost down on the official products which includes a wireless networking adapter. 3rd party memory is another issue but there are ways to get cheap storage.
Stability and the 50% failure is once again almost exclusively the preserve of the well documented revisions with the design flaw (Xenon to Zephyr models). I have a 2006 model that works perfectly and it's been played hard over the past 2 years.
FAT32 support with external USB hard drives and flash drives for all Xbox 360 consoles.
Expense is a subjective thing, look at the price of official Dual Shock controllers and other peripherals for the PS3 ... pricy indeed. Console manufacturers will always hit us hard with that as that is how they make continuous income.
True, you do not have the option of changing the 2.5 inch internal HDD yourself, but there are cheaper options for the 360 like the HDDHacker hack for using a Western Digital HDD or import from eBay or other online stores to pay less than the profit shafting local retail price.
The optical disc issue is more to do with the fact that Sony owns the patent to Blu-Ray in my opinion. M$ would have had to cough up big time to have it as their primary optical drive ... and they would have most probably sat with the Blu-Ray lens failure rate that the PS3 suffers from (I see it first hand as I repair consoles for a living).
The real issue is Live. We have to register as being from another region which means no local pricing for all the Gold membership content.
But of course that only affects those that have Internet access. Many clients I deal with don't have Internet at home so the online capabilities of next-gen consoles doesn't figure much in their day to day living.
In any case, at the end of the day the consumer weighs up what they need from a console.
If they want all the bells and whistles and perhaps have a long affinity with Sony then a PS3 would be what they purchase.
If they want an alternative from a company that is taking the fight to the traditional power house of the Playstation brand, then a Xbox 360 is what they purchase.
I own all 3 next-gen consoles, 360; Wii and PS3 as there are games I want to play across all the platforms. The platform specific game releases forces lovers of games to do this.
If you want to fasten your flag to one mast ... so be it!
@Dolby : If you don't mind me reponding in a list..it's just easier...the comment about taking my opiinions seriously, i believe you have sir...you responded in detail to nearly everyone of them 
1. [Consistent Experience] Those are nitpicking differences and is moot when u consider that all CE devices experience changes as they progress in their life-cycle, including the very early consoles if you recall SNES with cartridge and with optical disc, or PS1 with and without the attached LCD...this is a normal occurrence in the development world.... what is not, is abusing the product feature set to achieve a price point to get market share (still fair if you ask me) to a point where a consumer is shafted (and this is the case with the 360 and MS). # of USB ports, HDD size, Some phat..some slim is really grasping bud !
2. [Impact of no HDD] I never mentioned HDD size and i agree that HDD size is not an important factor but the lack of an HDD is totally unacceptable for a 'modern' ce product, especially a hardcore gaming console.
3. [Stability & MS Reputation] There is no official figures on failure rate, install base or sales really and to be honest I've seen articles with data as high as 50% for 360 and less than 15% for PS3. The quality of the product does impact loyalty, i've seen on these forums (and 360 forums) gamers saying this is their 3rd or 4th RROD and they are rather going to buy a PS3 (and lately a SLIM)..so yes, nice to have the extended warranty but still had real impact on their current and future sales and somewhat to their reputation.
Yes, I won't deny Sony was worried, but that is not to say they didn't make the correct choices, it is evident now that they did. The claimed sales is in my opinion is larger than the install base (with many gamers buy multiple boxes after warranty or if they weren't aware of the extended warranty), but even 10 million is not going to be enough to hold that 2nd position, Sony will definitely in the next 18 months drastically close that, we are see'ng that now. But sales are moot anyways, my entire post was with regards to decisions MS made that negatively impacted their customers.
4. [Flexibiliy/Proprietary] It's really not excusable to defend MS's proprietary stranglehold for standard components. Sony has prorietary formats and features, but none that are as ridiculous as MS's...the most obvious is UMD...maybe u guys can help with more, but my 60gb launch models supports all types of memory sticks and generic varieties...Not even teh controllers are proprietary..maybe some help here for a comparison ?
5. [You last point] You don't have to be a high-end device to be media rich necessarily...but I don't consider any device without storage medium as a media device...radio's aren't, TV's aren't...no way a arcade is !
I guess any point can be argued and there's always statistics to support both sides, but if you can honestly say that you don't feel that MS made bad decisions (that affected their customers) with regards tothe product design, SKU's released and business models (like the proprietary peripherals) then i can say you are a group of less than 100 people...and i got a feeling there's about 10 on this forum
1. [Consistent Experience] Those are nitpicking differences and is moot when u consider that all CE devices experience changes as they progress in their life-cycle, including the very early consoles if you recall SNES with cartridge and with optical disc, or PS1 with and without the attached LCD...this is a normal occurrence in the development world.... what is not, is abusing the product feature set to achieve a price point to get market share (still fair if you ask me) to a point where a consumer is shafted (and this is the case with the 360 and MS). # of USB ports, HDD size, Some phat..some slim is really grasping bud !
2. [Impact of no HDD] I never mentioned HDD size and i agree that HDD size is not an important factor but the lack of an HDD is totally unacceptable for a 'modern' ce product, especially a hardcore gaming console.
3. [Stability & MS Reputation] There is no official figures on failure rate, install base or sales really and to be honest I've seen articles with data as high as 50% for 360 and less than 15% for PS3. The quality of the product does impact loyalty, i've seen on these forums (and 360 forums) gamers saying this is their 3rd or 4th RROD and they are rather going to buy a PS3 (and lately a SLIM)..so yes, nice to have the extended warranty but still had real impact on their current and future sales and somewhat to their reputation.
Yes, I won't deny Sony was worried, but that is not to say they didn't make the correct choices, it is evident now that they did. The claimed sales is in my opinion is larger than the install base (with many gamers buy multiple boxes after warranty or if they weren't aware of the extended warranty), but even 10 million is not going to be enough to hold that 2nd position, Sony will definitely in the next 18 months drastically close that, we are see'ng that now. But sales are moot anyways, my entire post was with regards to decisions MS made that negatively impacted their customers.
4. [Flexibiliy/Proprietary] It's really not excusable to defend MS's proprietary stranglehold for standard components. Sony has prorietary formats and features, but none that are as ridiculous as MS's...the most obvious is UMD...maybe u guys can help with more, but my 60gb launch models supports all types of memory sticks and generic varieties...Not even teh controllers are proprietary..maybe some help here for a comparison ?
5. [You last point] You don't have to be a high-end device to be media rich necessarily...but I don't consider any device without storage medium as a media device...radio's aren't, TV's aren't...no way a arcade is !
I guess any point can be argued and there's always statistics to support both sides, but if you can honestly say that you don't feel that MS made bad decisions (that affected their customers) with regards tothe product design, SKU's released and business models (like the proprietary peripherals) then i can say you are a group of less than 100 people...and i got a feeling there's about 10 on this forum
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@Maestro : If you also don't mind me responding in points, easier to respond to
1. The X-BOX CORE SKU had wired controllers (not sure if it was the entire SKU or certain revisions, but I think it was ALL CORE models.My argument wasn't based on this fact, but even if it was i rebute "My argument is thus not flawed sir".
2. That is great and an important factor to some (if it is for you, i respect that), similarly Sony has for a while had PS1 classics available on PSN with PS2 library to follow but I would agree 100% that Sony did not give much attention to b/w compatibility although i believe this was intentional and as a PS3 gamer, i don't really care too much about b/w compatibility (i still have 2 PS2's in the house that work).
3. It's fine that some models didn't have HD outputs, but it seemed that MS willy-nilly removes features and functionality to achieve price points. I don't think that's a fair consumer practice when you assuming you buying a certain product with certain features only to realise there's no HD outputs or no HDD. (And this happened, i can find posts of people on forums that posted on this subject).
4. The failure rates of 360's based on the latest revisions of mobo's might be low ? The the reputation and perception i have of 360's is not one of trust, so I woudl have to wait for consistent and repeated reports of it's stability before I invest in one...does the latest 360's still come with a 3 year warranty?
5. FAT32 External support on all USB drives (didn't know that, thanks...might be a factor when I buy one for one of the bedrooms, least i know it can be a media player).
6. Peripherals pricing for items that are specific to that product is where you should profit from, but add-on's and components like hdd's, memory cards, network adapters is a big NO-NO in my opinion and would hate to see the media industry adopt this approach. I had an MVIX that came with a drive, but it was so easy to upgrade, my PS3 upgrades and my external drive exclosures all upgrade with the exception of the WD MYBOOK that I use at work which is very annoying !
7. The optical drive costs is moot.The Blu-Ray costs is more in manufacturing because of the laser and lens than the royalties as it was a newly adopted format and any consortium (especially one that comprises of Sony with all their failed formats) want the drive in as many devices as possible. I'm not sure why they exactly didn't include an HD optical drive but it's excusable considering there was a format war still going on...BTW, i have a launch 60gb and still no problems with BR.
8. MOST IMPORTANT - You are right, the consumer weigh up what they want, but it's not always from the perspective you consider...consumers aren't all tech-savvy and understand what the relevance of a component is and the impact of not having it (both currently and in the future, like parents buying for kids or people buying from loyalty)...if i can give a short example, i bought a blackberry curve on recommendation and brand identity, only to be very disappointed with features that are very important to me like customising the interface. It only had half the customisation options that i had on my much earlier 2003/4 Nokia 7710 where i could customise multiple desktops, arrange and re-name of icons at my will, custom backgrounds, custom icons, etc...I felt a little duped, and i'm sure that many consumers assess their needs and say I want a next-gen console, buy the arcade and realise they got an upgraded(or downgraded in some features ???) PS2....
If you need to realise most of the features in the PS3 are not bells and whistles (they are if you compare it to the 360)...they were what is 1. expected of any current gen media product including consoles(most media players play HD and have built-in wireless...my phone has these features) and 2. is absolutely required(e.g. HDD is required for gaming if you want DLC, if you buy to get great XBL games or if you want to DL full XBOX games ...you might say, something don't care about this..and i'll sincerely say you are lie'ng)
Just to share my gaming identity like you have, i currently game on a PS3, PS2, PSP and PC...I have owned a WII and early gen consoles (started gaming in the mid-80's)....but never owned an xbox...I enjoy wii sports for a short-while, love mario galaxy and thought wii fit will bring value, but it didn't so i sold it...haven't missed it at all. On my PC, I haven't played much this year, but Crysis, World in Conflict, Bioshock, Quake 4, Doom 3, Quake ET and more recently SHIFT is what i've played on PC...I've also played MS exclusives like Gears, Halo (remember getting vista for this 2 years ago), L4D and Mass Effect on my PC...(Dual core with 8800gt)
So i'm a pretty hardcore gamer..and played nearly everything if you have played and more, but just don't have the time or money to invest in every console and every game just for heck of it, although i've played more than 50 games this year and that's no lie.
1. The X-BOX CORE SKU had wired controllers (not sure if it was the entire SKU or certain revisions, but I think it was ALL CORE models.My argument wasn't based on this fact, but even if it was i rebute "My argument is thus not flawed sir".
2. That is great and an important factor to some (if it is for you, i respect that), similarly Sony has for a while had PS1 classics available on PSN with PS2 library to follow but I would agree 100% that Sony did not give much attention to b/w compatibility although i believe this was intentional and as a PS3 gamer, i don't really care too much about b/w compatibility (i still have 2 PS2's in the house that work).
3. It's fine that some models didn't have HD outputs, but it seemed that MS willy-nilly removes features and functionality to achieve price points. I don't think that's a fair consumer practice when you assuming you buying a certain product with certain features only to realise there's no HD outputs or no HDD. (And this happened, i can find posts of people on forums that posted on this subject).
4. The failure rates of 360's based on the latest revisions of mobo's might be low ? The the reputation and perception i have of 360's is not one of trust, so I woudl have to wait for consistent and repeated reports of it's stability before I invest in one...does the latest 360's still come with a 3 year warranty?
5. FAT32 External support on all USB drives (didn't know that, thanks...might be a factor when I buy one for one of the bedrooms, least i know it can be a media player).
6. Peripherals pricing for items that are specific to that product is where you should profit from, but add-on's and components like hdd's, memory cards, network adapters is a big NO-NO in my opinion and would hate to see the media industry adopt this approach. I had an MVIX that came with a drive, but it was so easy to upgrade, my PS3 upgrades and my external drive exclosures all upgrade with the exception of the WD MYBOOK that I use at work which is very annoying !
7. The optical drive costs is moot.The Blu-Ray costs is more in manufacturing because of the laser and lens than the royalties as it was a newly adopted format and any consortium (especially one that comprises of Sony with all their failed formats) want the drive in as many devices as possible. I'm not sure why they exactly didn't include an HD optical drive but it's excusable considering there was a format war still going on...BTW, i have a launch 60gb and still no problems with BR.
8. MOST IMPORTANT - You are right, the consumer weigh up what they want, but it's not always from the perspective you consider...consumers aren't all tech-savvy and understand what the relevance of a component is and the impact of not having it (both currently and in the future, like parents buying for kids or people buying from loyalty)...if i can give a short example, i bought a blackberry curve on recommendation and brand identity, only to be very disappointed with features that are very important to me like customising the interface. It only had half the customisation options that i had on my much earlier 2003/4 Nokia 7710 where i could customise multiple desktops, arrange and re-name of icons at my will, custom backgrounds, custom icons, etc...I felt a little duped, and i'm sure that many consumers assess their needs and say I want a next-gen console, buy the arcade and realise they got an upgraded(or downgraded in some features ???) PS2....
If you need to realise most of the features in the PS3 are not bells and whistles (they are if you compare it to the 360)...they were what is 1. expected of any current gen media product including consoles(most media players play HD and have built-in wireless...my phone has these features) and 2. is absolutely required(e.g. HDD is required for gaming if you want DLC, if you buy to get great XBL games or if you want to DL full XBOX games ...you might say, something don't care about this..and i'll sincerely say you are lie'ng)
Just to share my gaming identity like you have, i currently game on a PS3, PS2, PSP and PC...I have owned a WII and early gen consoles (started gaming in the mid-80's)....but never owned an xbox...I enjoy wii sports for a short-while, love mario galaxy and thought wii fit will bring value, but it didn't so i sold it...haven't missed it at all. On my PC, I haven't played much this year, but Crysis, World in Conflict, Bioshock, Quake 4, Doom 3, Quake ET and more recently SHIFT is what i've played on PC...I've also played MS exclusives like Gears, Halo (remember getting vista for this 2 years ago), L4D and Mass Effect on my PC...(Dual core with 8800gt)
So i'm a pretty hardcore gamer..and played nearly everything if you have played and more, but just don't have the time or money to invest in every console and every game just for heck of it, although i've played more than 50 games this year and that's no lie.
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Dolby
Honorary Master
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Those are nitpicking differences and is moot when u consider that all CE devices experience changes as they progress in their life-cycle, including the very early consoles if you recall SNES with cartridge and with optical disc, or PS1 with and without the attached LCD...this is a normal occurrence in the development world.... what is not, is abusing the product feature set to achieve a price point to get market share (still fair if you ask me) to a point where a consumer is shafted (and this is the case with the 360 and MS). # of USB ports, HDD size, Some phat..some slim is really grasping bud !
Um. You call those small? SACD, bitstreaming and lack of rumbling? :/ Fair enough, there was no HDMI on the early models of the Xbox - but remember this console was launched late 2005. There weren't many devices with HDMI at that stage - and they added later on, as all CE products experience changes in their life cycle ...
I agree that I'd want and need a HDD - as do many people. That's why we bough the model with HDD. There are people who don't require it - why is it difficult to understand that not everyone with an Xbox/PS3 has a 50" HDTV, surround sound, 4mbit uncapped internet with 1TB media?
Guess then you shouldn't have quoted
They probably still are worried - think they'll get the 10 million lead Xbox has? Anyhow - they did make a correct choice this time around, but they've lost pretty much all the format wars before. Betama and SACD come to mind. It was a risk and gamble, which luckily for them, paid off this time.
No one defended them. I said I agree it's a ****ty move.
I don't recall - did they advertise it as a games console or media hub? If they advertised the gaming side - I don't really see a problem?
And when you say that - how much more does a PS3 do thn an Xbox 360 when it comes to media?
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Telkomisaloser
Ninja
I'm going to buy a 120.....
R1999 + R1099 = R3098... still a saving
R1999 + R1099 = R3098... still a saving
Its not a view, all of that is true, and the xbox doesnt have mandatory installs so its a moot point, can you honestly tell me you store all your media on your PS3 drive? and when you want to copy more over, how do you do that? does the PS3 allow data transfer from say an external?
RPG_Fan
Senior Member
My point was that even the "ultimate gaming machine" aka PC requires all its games to be installed. xbox games for now do not require installs but that will definitely change. Games have been built to run straight from the DVD to cater for people using the Arcade SKU. HDD has a much larger transfer rate and also quicker seek times than DVD Drives which makes sense to transfer the data to the HDD right? I store most of my media on disc or a portable HDD. If I like certain movies or series, I just copy them onto the PS3 and play them from there.
true, but its not needed, installing is just an option, and 120gb drive will be more than enough for installing 30-40 games, which should cover just about anybody
maestro_za
Expert Member
Cool!@Maestro : If you also don't mind me responding in points, easier to respond to
1. The X-BOX CORE SKU had wired controllers (not sure if it was the entire SKU or certain revisions, but I think it was ALL CORE models.My argument wasn't based on this fact, but even if it was i rebute "My argument is thus not flawed sir".
2. That is great and an important factor to some (if it is for you, i respect that), similarly Sony has for a while had PS1 classics available on PSN with PS2 library to follow but I would agree 100% that Sony did not give much attention to b/w compatibility although i believe this was intentional and as a PS3 gamer, i don't really care too much about b/w compatibility (i still have 2 PS2's in the house that work).
3. It's fine that some models didn't have HD outputs, but it seemed that MS willy-nilly removes features and functionality to achieve price points. I don't think that's a fair consumer practice when you assuming you buying a certain product with certain features only to realise there's no HD outputs or no HDD. (And this happened, i can find posts of people on forums that posted on this subject).
4. The failure rates of 360's based on the latest revisions of mobo's might be low ? The the reputation and perception i have of 360's is not one of trust, so I woudl have to wait for consistent and repeated reports of it's stability before I invest in one...does the latest 360's still come with a 3 year warranty?
5. FAT32 External support on all USB drives (didn't know that, thanks...might be a factor when I buy one for one of the bedrooms, least i know it can be a media player).
6. Peripherals pricing for items that are specific to that product is where you should profit from, but add-on's and components like hdd's, memory cards, network adapters is a big NO-NO in my opinion and would hate to see the media industry adopt this approach. I had an MVIX that came with a drive, but it was so easy to upgrade, my PS3 upgrades and my external drive exclosures all upgrade with the exception of the WD MYBOOK that I use at work which is very annoying !
7. The optical drive costs is moot.The Blu-Ray costs is more in manufacturing because of the laser and lens than the royalties as it was a newly adopted format and any consortium (especially one that comprises of Sony with all their failed formats) want the drive in as many devices as possible. I'm not sure why they exactly didn't include an HD optical drive but it's excusable considering there was a format war still going on...BTW, i have a launch 60gb and still no problems with BR.
8. MOST IMPORTANT - You are right, the consumer weigh up what they want, but it's not always from the perspective you consider...consumers aren't all tech-savvy and understand what the relevance of a component is and the impact of not having it (both currently and in the future, like parents buying for kids or people buying from loyalty)...if i can give a short example, i bought a blackberry curve on recommendation and brand identity, only to be very disappointed with features that are very important to me like customising the interface. It only had half the customisation options that i had on my much earlier 2003/4 Nokia 7710 where i could customise multiple desktops, arrange and re-name of icons at my will, custom backgrounds, custom icons, etc...I felt a little duped, and i'm sure that many consumers assess their needs and say I want a next-gen console, buy the arcade and realise they got an upgraded(or downgraded in some features ???) PS2....
If you need to realise most of the features in the PS3 are not bells and whistles (they are if you compare it to the 360)...they were what is 1. expected of any current gen media product including consoles(most media players play HD and have built-in wireless...my phone has these features) and 2. is absolutely required(e.g. HDD is required for gaming if you want DLC, if you buy to get great XBL games or if you want to DL full XBOX games ...you might say, something don't care about this..and i'll sincerely say you are lie'ng)
Just to share my gaming identity like you have, i currently game on a PS3, PS2, PSP and PC...I have owned a WII and early gen consoles (started gaming in the mid-80's)....but never owned an xbox...I enjoy wii sports for a short-while, love mario galaxy and thought wii fit will bring value, but it didn't so i sold it...haven't missed it at all. On my PC, I haven't played much this year, but Crysis, World in Conflict, Bioshock, Quake 4, Doom 3, Quake ET and more recently SHIFT is what i've played on PC...I've also played MS exclusives like Gears, Halo (remember getting vista for this 2 years ago), L4D and Mass Effect on my PC...(Dual core with 8800gt)
So i'm a pretty hardcore gamer..and played nearly everything if you have played and more, but just don't have the time or money to invest in every console and every game just for heck of it, although i've played more than 50 games this year and that's no lie.
Glad that you can admit to some slip up's in your argument. It's good for healthy debate.
On the warranty issue, yes 3 year extended warranty for RROD and E74. Problem lies in the fact that many people don't look after their purchase slips which defeats the point of a warranty in my opinion.
In terms of DLC, yes by all means buy a console with a HDD (out of the box an Arcade of course doesn't have). That is why the Pro and Elite was released. As time goes by MS will release larger capacity HDDs. I bought a Pro as my first and only 360 thus far ... other consumers couldn't be bothered to be honest.
The Arcade is also very attractive to owners of older consoles that had the RROD or other hardware related fault as a cheap replacement. Plug in your HDD and other peripherals and you back to gaming hard.
I refuse to pay the high cost of games at retail level in SA. So I rely on the pre-played local market and importing new games. Easier on the pocket
Much respect
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@Nduimiso : It doesn't have mandatory installs, but love you to tell that to arcade owners that don't have the 3gb hdd space (or hdd really) to install the additional cars and courses that is on disc 2...it's not mandotary to install, but if you can't install, then u can't play on 'em....MS doesn't develop every game, so it's gonna be harder and harder to tell 3rd party developers...for our system, u can't use hdd's to maximise the game performance, features or dlc on extra discs...oops, they already losing that battle with Forza 3...
From 1 PS3 owner, most of my media sits on a 1TB external drive...as i get new media, it gets copied to my PS3 internal drive and as i watch i delete...works great for me, generally music i stream over my wireless network.
@Dolby : Yep, seems like you clutching for straws again...Yes, they are small...even though SACD is a sony format, i couldnt' care about it...it might be technically superior but until music is recorded in 5.1 discrete SS or more, no one really wants anything better than the current CD delivers (scratch resistant would be nice though)...Don't see 1 SACD in my music store...Bitstreaming, same thing really and RUMBLE is that SONY was in a lawsuit with Immserive or something about the rumble feature and that delayed teh launched...no a choice by Sony...So c'mon with the 1st two examples you gave, there is less than 1% of 1% of gamers/geeks/media peepz that are interested in SACD...
The fact that you use these as examples really indicates what a great job Sony has done by profiling what the market would want and retaining it !
2. Why is it difficult to understand not everyone wants a HDD ? because there is no reasonable person that is interested in gaming or media that would not want an HDD..if you interested in either, it's obvious that they would want HDD's....why can't you understand, the reason you want a HDD is the reason eveyr single gamer(or media lover) wants a HDD...it's very similar to social network, i went for a tech-hub conference recently and the one of the presentations, the guy spoke about how social networking is a product anymore, it's a feature...hence u see a game like Uncharted 2 will twitter your progress and achievements....HDD is not an optional component, it's a necesity for gaming...i've used forza 3 in the other thread as an example, arcade owners with no HDD's cannot drive the courses or use the cars that are on Disc 2....and obviously they can't get DLC, they can't get classic XBOX games and they can't patch games...and nearly every AAA game requires an update, i haven't come across one that didn't really...
About the failure rates, i didn't quote, i thought i used a acceptable average Should maybe have indicated instead of 1 in every 2, that likely 1 in every 3 360's fail !
Honestly, no way they are worried, they currently have the strongest console from the 7th gen and more importantly have had the best gaming line up for 2008 (voted by IGN), 2009 (obvious) and most importantly 2010...with the wands refining the casual motion experience in a way that Natal (duplicating the PSeye functionality) is not gonna pull off. They have also recently outsold the Wii in Japan and outsold the 360 in the US with possibility of outselling both in 2009. If anyone at Sony is worried, they in for pleasant surprises...
Your last point on the gaming console advertised as media hub or GC...a gaming console is now a media hub...sorry to burst your bubble but that is convergence and consumer expectation....similarly with a phone, if you can call on it, it means nothing...if must have a colour screen, if it doesn't you not gonna get it sold in this day and age, not even at R10 a phone...if it doesn't have media playback, camera, internet (network) access (gprs, 3g, wireless) then it's not gonna sell many either...
Quite a bit more...wireless streaming of media (super-important to many people) that either want transcoding done via a media server or wirelessly play music from their cell phones, etc.....BLU-RAY playback (the only video format for HD presentation devices), upscales DVD and manages a number of media formats...I've only had a few issues with codecs...
I'm sorry bud, but anyone that is defending MS's decisions..either knows very little about consumer electronics, marketing, media or gaming...they did it for the $$$....
From 1 PS3 owner, most of my media sits on a 1TB external drive...as i get new media, it gets copied to my PS3 internal drive and as i watch i delete...works great for me, generally music i stream over my wireless network.
@Dolby : Yep, seems like you clutching for straws again...Yes, they are small...even though SACD is a sony format, i couldnt' care about it...it might be technically superior but until music is recorded in 5.1 discrete SS or more, no one really wants anything better than the current CD delivers (scratch resistant would be nice though)...Don't see 1 SACD in my music store...Bitstreaming, same thing really and RUMBLE is that SONY was in a lawsuit with Immserive or something about the rumble feature and that delayed teh launched...no a choice by Sony...So c'mon with the 1st two examples you gave, there is less than 1% of 1% of gamers/geeks/media peepz that are interested in SACD...
The fact that you use these as examples really indicates what a great job Sony has done by profiling what the market would want and retaining it !
2. Why is it difficult to understand not everyone wants a HDD ? because there is no reasonable person that is interested in gaming or media that would not want an HDD..if you interested in either, it's obvious that they would want HDD's....why can't you understand, the reason you want a HDD is the reason eveyr single gamer(or media lover) wants a HDD...it's very similar to social network, i went for a tech-hub conference recently and the one of the presentations, the guy spoke about how social networking is a product anymore, it's a feature...hence u see a game like Uncharted 2 will twitter your progress and achievements....HDD is not an optional component, it's a necesity for gaming...i've used forza 3 in the other thread as an example, arcade owners with no HDD's cannot drive the courses or use the cars that are on Disc 2....and obviously they can't get DLC, they can't get classic XBOX games and they can't patch games...and nearly every AAA game requires an update, i haven't come across one that didn't really...
About the failure rates, i didn't quote, i thought i used a acceptable average
Should maybe have indicated instead of 1 in every 2, that likely 1 in every 3 360's fail !Honestly, no way they are worried, they currently have the strongest console from the 7th gen and more importantly have had the best gaming line up for 2008 (voted by IGN), 2009 (obvious) and most importantly 2010...with the wands refining the casual motion experience in a way that Natal (duplicating the PSeye functionality) is not gonna pull off. They have also recently outsold the Wii in Japan and outsold the 360 in the US with possibility of outselling both in 2009. If anyone at Sony is worried, they in for pleasant surprises...
Your last point on the gaming console advertised as media hub or GC...a gaming console is now a media hub...sorry to burst your bubble but that is convergence and consumer expectation....similarly with a phone, if you can call on it, it means nothing...if must have a colour screen, if it doesn't you not gonna get it sold in this day and age, not even at R10 a phone...if it doesn't have media playback, camera, internet (network) access (gprs, 3g, wireless) then it's not gonna sell many either...
Quite a bit more...wireless streaming of media (super-important to many people) that either want transcoding done via a media server or wirelessly play music from their cell phones, etc.....BLU-RAY playback (the only video format for HD presentation devices), upscales DVD and manages a number of media formats...I've only had a few issues with codecs...
I'm sorry bud, but anyone that is defending MS's decisions..either knows very little about consumer electronics, marketing, media or gaming...they did it for the $$$....