All you programmers out there, please chime in.

Sir Peel-a-Lot

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I've spent a few days researching this, and I could go on reading advice online for another year and keep getting conflicting info, all valid and valuable info though, but I'd like a unique South African take on this 'cause much of the advice I've read online, like Reddit, I would think pertains to software dev job markets in the Northern Hemisphere, anywhere from US to UK to India, Russia, China, and anywhere in-between.

I don't have a relevant computer science degree, and I have no programming experience beyond being very computer literate, I've spent most of my life tinkering with computers (software stuff) and backend stuff since the 80s, and studied a short web design course some years ago, but it's all just for curiosity's sake. So I would consider myself a power user with computers if that's the term. I currently work in media, video, photography, design and general tech stuff like that.

For the last few weeks I've been learning Python, the real basic stuff seems to come naturally and I'm really enjoying it, and I understand the very basics so far in terms of variables, if-else, converting a str to a float, etc. While I haven't got there yet with this course, I grasp the concept of boolean logic from researching what some junior interview questions might be.

With the lack of a CS degree, and I'll be late 40s probably by the time I'm 'ready' for a junior position, am I wasting my time, even if find I have an aptitude for it and get some projects on GitHub? Specifically thinking about SA being a developing country and the fact that programmers will probably be in high demand here for decades to come as the country continues to advance in tech.

Feel free to be frank, but looking for serious, objective answers. TIA.
 
If your competing for a traditional corporate ladder "become a programmer -> sen dev" then..
I dont want to tell anyone its not possible, but its going to be very difficult.
Also taking into account the fact that Ive heard a lot of programmers themselves are looking for work in SA (even those coming from a traditional path).

However I do think the paths are wider than that one route.
For example you could end up coding something (like chrome extensions, etc) that works in the industry that you do have experience with, create a product and sell it
or
you could look at data analytics, which is much easier to get into and uses script languages, which is not as complex as programming languages. I've seen a few people use their industry knowledge to get into the data world at older ages
and then simply learning the tools (think BI tools look PowerBI, Qlik, Tableau)
or
Data Engineering is also easier to understand (think Databases and setting them up in the cloud)

TLDR: The path you are thinking of will prob be very tough, but consider other areas of IT,
 
Data Engineering is also easier to understand (think Databases and setting them up in the cloud)

TLDR: The path you are thinking of will prob be very tough, but consider other areas of IT,

Thanks for the quality reply, much appreciated. The above is very helpful too, shall check it out.
 
A portfolio and some marketing is usually what it takes to find work when you don’t have qualifications or experience.

I would try building increasingly complex projects, perhaps doing pro bono work as well for friends/family/community/etc., to get things on your resume (and also because self-selected portfolio projects may be less “real-world” than you would think).

I don’t usually recommend bootcamps over degrees, but if you feel that you can’t realistically spend a few years getting a degree, a 6 month bootcamp may not be a bad idea to get you started.

Given your past history, perhaps something centered around cloud management or DevOps may be a better fit for you.
 
I would think about it in different terms. Read this short article:

You need a portfolio of skills you can be in the top 25% of and then get a niche. More and more jobs that previously required no programming knowledge now need some programming. Mechanical engineers increasingly use computers to do stuff as computers and engines integrate more and more. Doctors use big data and SW to analyze X-Rays and scans as well as patient data. Actuaries almost all have to code a bit now. Rather than thinking in terms of I have to do a complete career switch I would think where in my current field and skill set would I appear more valuable because I have a dual skill now? Say you are into photography. Most will have some basic skills on PC's and deep skills in photo taking and editing. Well learn AI assisted coding perhaps and see where AI and code can assist to automate some of the tedious parts of photo editing, managing, etc. Now instead of being one of hundreds in your career, you are the one guy developing your field further and that puts you in demand, and gets you more options and hopefully more pay. That is how I would look at it.

And that blog entry is still some of the best career advice I have ever read.
 
Its possible. What a lot of people who swop mid career do is start freelancing after hours for a low rate where the projects are typically smaller and there is less commitment from a business.

Programming can be a tough gig though. Its ever changing and you have to really enjoy it and put in the effort to have one or two speciality areas where you really shine and have some more cross skills. Being on the delivery side of the project means feeling a lot of pressure to meet deadlines and usually make up time the planning/business side lost. It also means when times are slow or there is a recession you are likely at the top of the chopping block as new work gets shelved and the business focusses on core functions.

On the other side of things being able to program is a skill you can use in a lot of fields so its not wasted time if you find its not for you.
 
Some good feedback above.

Depending on your skill level in the future, you can get a good paying job. The advice for freelancing/starting your own thing/side hustle is also good.

If you have a good social/business network, you might land a few gigs. There are many "programmers" out there and the work they do are many times laughable. Look at many of the government websites and even internet banking from ABSA and Standard Bank - they are using backend technology and code that is ancient. Even big software companies like Sage. So there is a very big need for good coders

Coding changes all the time. An app (2021 on v6 of the framework) I developed on the latest tech became absolute 4 years later. The newer framework (v7 in 2022) that was released just after I launched the app was lightyears more advanced. Even things like PostgreSQL become a lot faster.

Your basics in coding will help you a lot and Python is very similar to some other languages too and if you stay current - even better. There is also a monthly meetup for Python in Jhb: https://www.meetup.com/pydata-johannesburg/events/

Edit: Dont expect coding geniuses to be at the meetup, most [all] of them lack basic security knowledge of protecting credentials. They have some good ideas though but at the moment they are also stuck on the [fake] AI bandwagon.

Edit 2: Many employers want a degree especially if you want to look for international employment, but degrees are based on what big corporates (like MS) paid the uni to teach students to ensure their tech gets used in the future and the bring in the $$$. Real world is different and most of the successful people dont have degrees. Most of the best tech for development is open source.
 
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Look at many of the government websites and even internet banking from ABSA and Standard Bank - they are using backend technology and code that is ancient. Even big software companies like Sage. So there is a very big need for good coders
If you ever worked in a bank you would know why technology there takes forever to change and for your information Hamster and I were part of a team using Go at Standard Bank.

Edit: Dont expect coding geniuses to be at the meetup, most [all] of them lack basic security knowledge of protecting credentials. They have some good ideas though but at the moment they are also stuck on the [fake] AI bandwagon.
Really? In a few conferences/meetups I've gone to there are highly influential people who have made great impacts in the fields of computer science. Maybe you are just attending the wrong events?

Most top-tier computer scientists are solving real-world problems, not worrying about one-way hashing of strings. This clearly shows your level. :laugh:

Edit 2: Many employers want a degree especially if you want to look for international employment, but degrees are based on what big corporates (like MS) paid the uni to teach students to ensure their tech gets used in the future and the bring in the $$$. Real world is different and most of the successful people dont have degrees. Most of the best tech for development is open source.

Lol, Linus and Bjorn Straustrop have a PhD and that's just two influential ones off the top of my head, there are hundreds and thousands more.

So in closing, you're talking out your arse, as per usual.
 
If you ever worked in a bank you would know why technology there takes forever to change and for your information Hamster and I were part of a team using Go at Standard Bank.


Really? In a few conferences/meetups I've gone to there are highly influential people who have made great impacts in the fields of computer science. Maybe you are just attending the wrong events?

Most top-tier computer scientists are solving real-world problems, not worrying about one-way hashing of strings. This clearly shows your level. :laugh:



Lol, Linus and Bjorn Straustrop have a PhD and that's just two influential ones off the top of my head, there are hundreds and thousands more.

So in closing, you're talking out your arse, as per usual.
Now we know why Standard Bank's backend is so bad and have made numerous headlines for constantly crashing. Instead of doing something innovative (or at the very least industry standard), you come here to defend incompetence.

We also know why syndicates could go around Japan using cloned Standard Bank cards.

And if the speakers/presenters at the meetups are so highly influential, surely, they shouldn't be crying when people use all their credits on online platforms because they continue to expose their credentials during presentations?

And, no, most top-tier computer scientists aren't solving real-world problems - if that were the case openAI would have remained not for profit and big software companies would have advanced their product offerings. Most "computer scientists" are working for Google and Facebook for the financial benefits and only redesigning UI.

I know a few people with PHDs too - personally. Some who aren't even able to tie their own shoelaces.

I really can't believe someone would go around bragging that they worked in the IT department at Standard Bank - with all the major IT issues they had and clearly still have since last month they had more issues with customer balances. And then try to insult someone in the process?

@CW67 its because of overconfident people like semaphore that there is great opportunity to advance in the coding field. He is stuck in the past with old techniques and methods and you now starting to learn newer and better ways to do things right from the start will benefit you greatly. Its those who are learning secure techniques now who will advance especially considering new data protection acts coming into play. It wasn't "PHD" holders who helped detect issues with systems like SASSA - even though PHD holders most likely developed it - it was 2 current students.
 
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Thanks for the replies peeps, I appreciate your replies and advice..

Yes, with my visual design experience and little web design knowledge I have, there are some truly awful websites in this country in now 2025. Even ones that you'd think would be better like some big sports retail sites. Not to mention FNB's forex/PayPal section of their website which is evidently so badly coded I want to tear my hair out on a weekly basis when using it - purely going on the amount of errors it throws up each time I use it, and multiple attempts to do the most simple of transactions due to hangs, crashes etc.
 
Thanks for the replies peeps, I appreciate your replies and advice..

Yes, with my visual design experience and little web design knowledge I have, there are some truly awful websites in this country in now 2025. Even ones that you'd think would be better like some big sports retail sites. Not to mention FNB's forex/PayPal section of their website which is evidently so badly coded I want to tear my hair out on a weekly basis when using it - purely going on the amount of errors it throws up each time I use it, and multiple attempts to do the most simple of transactions due to hangs, crashes etc.
Have you ever worked outside of IT?
 
, but degrees are based on what big corporates (like MS) paid the uni to teach students to ensure their tech gets used in the future and the bring in the $$$. Real world is different and most of the successful people dont have degrees.
The above paragraph is complete nonsense.
 
The above paragraph is complete nonsense.
Which part? The part where you do not agree that universities insert corporate sponsored products into courses or the part where Musk didn't have a computer science degree when he started his web apps (the ones he sold where he made his first couple of million) or Zuckerberg that also didn't have a computer science degree when he started Facebook?

I bet you do gardening for a living
 
Which part? The part where you do not agree that universities insert corporate sponsored products into courses or the part where Musk didn't have a computer science degree when he started his web apps (the ones he sold where he made his first couple of million) or Zuckerberg that also didn't have a computer science degree when he started Facebook?
All of the above. Computer Science has very little to do with the products you use (and even in my day, were largely open source).

What Musk and Zuckerberg did or did not do are irrelevant in the context of career advice.

Another irrelevant fact: 80% of the top 10 billionaires have degrees, while only 6.7% of the general population does.

A more relevant fact: Almost all the technical staff of the top tech companies in the world have degrees.

I bet you do gardening for a living
I’m a computer scientist with international publications, and decades of experience in Silicon Valley and Wall Street. How about you?
 
Almost all the technical staff of the top tech companies in the world have degrees.
And they consider themselves great like Standard Bank's overachievers above?
I’m a computer scientist with international publications, and decades of experience in Silicon Valley and Wall Street.
Cool story bro
 
They’re laughing the way to the bank, bud.


Perhaps if you’re a gardner.
And the mighty also fall - just harder than the rest. I enjoy watching Standard Bank having monthly issues. Standard Bank staff aren't laughing, they are most likely retrenched which Standard Bank has been doing on an annual basis - which explains why poor hamster and semaphore is on here.

Any idiot can publish anything, most highschoolers have their works published on a national level before they reach matric. It really is no flex. And to publish something internationally also isn't a flex, you may as well be an unpaid intern at Media24.

If you need your ego stroked, MBB isn't really the place hey - your degree is worth less than the paper its printed on. The university that tricked you into overpaying for it while you waste years of your time learning things that became obsolete a few years later - they are the only ones laughing all the way to the bank.
 
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