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Amending the Constitution on land is becoming unavoidable

ambroseg1

Executive Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
7,713
#61
Give me a better alternative and I will vote for them.
Unfortunately I cannot do that. I was merely pointing out the flaw in your choice. Most parties will look good and say the right thing when not in power. Things change however when they get into any sort of power. Look at the DA. The thing with COPE is, we already know what their leader is capable of when in power. Look at his ANC days.
 
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Eniigma

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Messages
1,108
#62
Amending the Constitution on land is becoming unavoidable
This has been my niggling thought over the last couple of months as events unfold in South Africa, pre 2019 Elections.
I cannot help but think that the current ANC top guys thought that using this controversial issue pre-election was to drum up votes going into the elections. The problem will arise if the ANC does not secure a 50% majority and needs to make a coalition with a smaller party like the EFF, then the land expropriation without compensation issue will become a self fulfilling prophecy as I can vouch that the EFF will not go into a coalition with the ANC without this question being addressed according to their own manifesto.
It is with this in mind that I think we need to be very afraid and reading Max Du Preez's comments, it might well be wiser for the ANC to address the issues before elections while they still have the power than leaving it to an unknown outcome post 2019 elections.

Any form of Mugabe style land invasions or land being grabbed illegally from private land owners will catapult South Africa into a recession it may not recover from and put us on an even worse path than we are as we muddle our way through a decade of Zuma ilk corruption.
In light of last nights announcement, I have to ask...
Some kind of insider info there BTTB? :whistling: :D
 

BTTB

Moderator
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
7,663
#63
In light of last nights announcement, I have to ask...
Some kind of insider info there BTTB? :whistling: :D
No, but my gut has been telling me something.
Hence my comment that I had a "niggling" feeling the last couple of month. Last night I just had wind. :crylaugh:
 

cbrunsdonza

Honorary Master
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
13,131
#64
A very interesting read on what is required to amend the constitution: https://constitutionallyspeaking.co...-compensation-how-to-change-the-constitution/

So if ANC goes ahead with 2/3rd approach then they all they achieve is more window dressing as rule of law will still trump. People can still turn to courts, which is a good thing, as they cannot amend the constitution if it clashes with other parts.

But if they want to take what is not theirs without question, then a 75% majority is required.

Most likely the 2/3rd approach will be taken for political points.
 

BTTB

Moderator
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
7,663
#65
In light of the announcement made by President Cyril Rhamaphosa last night the 31st of July 2018 in regards to Expropriation of Land without Compensation this thread is more or less redundant.
My niggling feeling has come to pass.

Worst case scenario, the Germans and/or US will come bale out the remaining whites/conservatives and whats left of South Africa within the next decade or so.
Hopeful scenario, smoke and daggers to gain votes in the lead up to 2019 National Elections, end result will be expropriation of a some open spaces and green belts around our Cities to accommodate homeless people, basically unused land that isn't fenced in.
 

jambai

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
651
#66
A friend and I were talking about this the other night and we were stuck in a very strange position. Though in principle we support expropriation without compensation, we both thought that the circumstances it can be used be VERY restricted. Meaning the wording of the amendment must be very clear.

As a property owner, the EFF approach scares the crap out of me, but when reading the ANC resolution on the matter, the wording made us think the amendment will be very restrictive. As long as private ownership rights are protected in the absence of a valid land claim against my property, then I personally will be cool. With a valid land claim, I will sell long before it gets to expropriation stage.

Either way, a lot more of us will have to introduce a new phase of buying property, finding out if there is a land claim against it...
Yes but in order to get it passed the anc needs the eff . So you don’t think the eff is going to bully the anc to get the wording the way they want as let’s be honest on numerous times the anc has said that ewc is not their policy and it only for no reason other than loosing votes to the eff has their view changed
 

antowan

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
12,832
#67
Correct. The united geo-political space we know as South Africa only came into being 108 years ago. The concept of property and accounting for vast open spaces back then is complex. There were less than a million people in this space back in 1652....
 

BTTB

Moderator
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
7,663
#69
I have been following the EWC debate and watching several Parliamentary videos and it seems clear to me reading between the lines that the ANC are not going to support the EFF in taking land without compensation, at least the way they would like to do in a Zimbabwe fashion that is.

There are several reasons I think so, but the two main reasons is that the Institute of Race Relations does not support it which would be needed once it goes to the Constitutional Court and the EFF never took into account the over 700000 written submissions that came before June compared to the 2000 oral submissions that were taken across the country since then.

The 2019 elections are 7 months away and the jury is still out on this EWC matter so I would hesitate to stand by my assumption until after the election and what the results of that election mean to our future, anything can happen, even in world politics between now and then.

I will leave you with this little bit of insight written by Zambian, Brian Mulenga.
‘BLACK SOUTH AFRICA WILL STAY POOR’

There is a rising cry that Nelson Mandela was somehow a pawn of the white people and that he did nothing for the black people after Independence.

Well here is the real truth. In the 1950s and 1960s, African nations got Independence. In a lot of countries, the first thing people set about doing was getting so-called economic Independence. Economic independence always meant chasing all the colonialists and foreigners and appropriating their assets and sharing them amongst the local people

In 1960, the DRC then called the Belgian Congo, became Independent and promptly descended into chaos. However, this was more political chaos rather than economic chaos. That came in 1972. Mobutu Sese Seko seized all foreign-owned businesses and gave them to Congolese to universal acclaim. The DRC never ever recovered from that single move. Within months shops were empty, farms were reverting to the bush and the decline into business chaos in the Congo began.

In 1975, a young leader took office in Mozambique and he had plainly announced he would expropriate everything and run a Marxist state. By 1977 simple things like toothpaste or soap were no long available in Mozambique. In fact, so rare were such things as washing powder that in 1987 Renamo rebels attacked a Zambian shop in Nyimba and looted it. Several Renamo rebels got sick when they ate Dynamo washing paste thinking it was some sort of spread for bread. They had never seen anything like it.

In Tanzania Mwalimu Nyerere, nationalized everything and the result was severe shortages incomprehensible to Zambians. Tanzania became an economic wasteland where sugar, tea, soap, matches were simply not to be had.

In Uganda Idi Amin, in 1973 decided that Indians who dominated business had to go. He expelled 90,000 Indians in three months and the result was total economic collapse. Factories ground to a halt. Shops emptied and Uganda almost reverted to a village type economy with corporate business almost disappearing. The effects were terrible for the people living in Uganda with simple things like sanitary pads becoming very difficult to find

The ANC were in exile in these countries and they saw the economic damage which expropriation and redistribution by force caused. This led to a significant movement within the ANC to decide that they would not repeat the mistakes of the other African countries.

The truth is and this is the naked ugly truth, black South Africans have not seized the opportunities available for them. The government, for instance, has ordered public procurement to reserve business for black South Africans. When you read the annual reports of companies like Eskom, Telkom, Broadband Infraco, Spoornet, literally billions of dollars of business goes begging. They cannot meet their targets for black empowerment. Why? The lack of appropriately skilled contractors meant business reserved for black people could not be given to them. Instead, they supply stationary, printers, etc. Business anyone can do. Import stuff from China or the US and mark it up and sell it on. Real work like electrical engineering contracts, equipment maintenance etc. all goes begging and they are forced to give it to the traditional suppliers and contractors. The white and Asian minority.

Economic empowerment is not handed to people on a plate. People have to work for it. In South Africa, the civil service and parastatals are now very black. The diversification of workforces has worked but it has also lead to a very curious phenomenon. The white people come back as contractors and suppliers to do the jobs they used to do. South Africa is full of what my friend calls office engineers and technicians. They have the degrees and certificates but they don’t have the skills.

Is this Mandela's fault? That black people have not seized the opportunities offered? When black people from the rest of Africa have seen the opportunities and moved in it has caused resentment.

Black South Africans are their own worst enemies. When you go to a South African University you find the classes of liberal arts and humanities are full of black people. History, Library studies, education etc. The difficult courses like engineering, sciences, telecommunications even the harder arts courses like business studies, accounts, finance, banking are not popular.

To this day there are more white chartered accountants than blacks. Even South African Airways, the South African Nay and the South African Air Force has had problems recruiting technical staff like pilots, technicians and engineers. At one stage the South African Air Force could not replace all the retiring pilots and engineers simply because there were not enough black people passing the training and not enough were applying for the jobs!!! The Air Force of Zimbabwe had to help with pilots and technicians!!! South African Airways still cannot get enough black pilots. The South African Navy cannot sail its ships and submarines simply because there are not enough technicians and engineers to man the ships.

The plain hard truth is there is something very wrong with the attitude and culture of the Black South Africans. There are simply not enough entrepreneurs and technically skilled black South Africans to take up the opportunities available in the country and which the government has assiduously promoted.

Take farming for instance. The ANC government has bought millions of hectares of land has offered it up for black farmers. It has not been taken up and yet Julius Malema is literally shaking the whole economy and crying about economic injustice over and yet there is land on the table.

Things have been tried. At the Johannesburg Market, the biggest fresh produce market in Africa, the government has tried to create black-owned co-operatives to become wholesalers. Instead of competing for business, the co-operative has now demanded that business be reserved for it in the name of black empowerment!!!

The truth is Nelson Mandela could not force Black South Africans to go to school. He could not force Black South Africans to rise above simple kantemba business. The government has tried to empower black South Africans but it seems the lure of kwaito, drugs and alcohol is higher. The politically connected like Julius Malema have enriched themselves with contracts to supply paper, toner etc.

However, the real empowerment setting up the SMEs that do all the skilled jobs like engineering, printing, metal fabrication etc. has not happened. It takes people with the right qualifications to do that and unfortunately black South Africans do not want to take up these jobs or set up these businesses.

Until they do, and the ball is in their court, not Nelson Mandela's or Ramaphosa's or Malema's they will not take control of their economy. Grabbing what other people worked for has not worked anywhere in the world. The History is there.

Brian Mulenga

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010417030673
 

Tander

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
4,835
#70
I have been following the EWC debate and watching several Parliamentary videos and it seems clear to me reading between the lines that the ANC are not going to support the EFF in taking land without compensation, at least the way they would like to do in a Zimbabwe fashion that is.

There are several reasons I think so, but the two main reasons is that the Institute of Race Relations does not support it which would be needed once it goes to the Constitutional Court and the EFF never took into account the over 700000 written submissions that came before June compared to the 2000 oral submissions that were taken across the country since then.

The 2019 elections are 7 months away and the jury is still out on this EWC matter so I would hesitate to stand by my assumption until after the election and what the results of that election mean to our future, anything can happen, even in world politics between now and then.

I will leave you with this little bit of insight written by Zambian, Brian Mulenga.
That's racist... ;)
 

ArtyLoop

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2017
Messages
2,152
#71
Yup.. was going to say that. When you come with facts and logic... those whom the article pertains to most will whip out the trusty race card..
 

daveza

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 5, 2004
Messages
32,708
#72
https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/so...inst-land-expropriation-without-compensation/

Survey shows most voters are against land expropriation without compensation


The South African Institute of Race Relations (IRR) has released the second part of its comprehensive survey of voters.

The results show that 41% of those who have heard of the proposed policy of land expropriation without compensation "somewhat" or "strongly" oppose it. Only 30% of those who have heard of it "somewhat" or "strongly" support the policy.
 

Sweevo

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
27,080
#74
Everybody testing the waters before the elections. Tunes will change as popular opinion is heard... for better or worse.
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
4,016
#75
Amending the Constitution on land is becoming unavoidable
This has been my niggling thought over the last couple of months as events unfold in South Africa, pre 2019 Elections.
I cannot help but think that the current ANC top guys thought that using this controversial issue pre-election was to drum up votes going into the elections. The problem will arise if the ANC does not secure a 50% majority and needs to make a coalition with a smaller party like the EFF, then the land expropriation without compensation issue will become a self fulfilling prophecy as I can vouch that the EFF will not go into a coalition with the ANC without this question being addressed according to their own manifesto.
It is with this in mind that I think we need to be very afraid and reading Max Du Preez's comments, it might well be wiser for the ANC to address the issues before elections while they still have the power than leaving it to an unknown outcome post 2019 elections.

Any form of Mugabe style land invasions or land being grabbed illegally from private land owners will catapult South Africa into a recession it may not recover from and put us on an even worse path than we are as we muddle our way through a decade of Zuma ilk corruption.
Same for stupid
 

Visser

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2010
Messages
837
#76
In regards to foreign passport, not so easy for some of us with no ties or relations overseas.. if I could I would have secured it decades ago. BUT, I keep my options open.


I am not so sure about that, this time...
Try looking at Panama - even if it is only a temporary solution.

They have a great offer, which may soon expire if they get a new President next year (who promised to do away with certain countries, including South Africa, considered to be on their 'friendly nation' list).

I got my permanent residency for me and my family earlier. It was super easy and cheap too. I also have a business registered there too.

Also have no property in South Africa and ready to pack up and leave any time if needed.
 

ForceFate

Honorary Master
Joined
May 18, 2009
Messages
10,867
#77
Try looking at Panama - even if it is only a temporary solution.

They have a great offer, which may soon expire if they get a new President next year (who promised to do away with certain countries, including South Africa, considered to be on their 'friendly nation' list).

I got my permanent residency for me and my family earlier. It was super easy and cheap too. I also have a business registered there too.

Also have no property in South Africa and ready to pack up and leave any time if needed.
My regards to Cde. NDZ and a bunch of other Cdes.

But Panama?
 

Gnome

Executive Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2005
Messages
5,579
#78
In regards to foreign passport, not so easy for some of us with no ties or relations overseas.. if I could I would have secured it decades ago. BUT, I keep my options open.
How hard is it really?

I mean my girlfriend got a job as a recruiter in Europe and she immediately got a blue card (permanent residency in any EU state). The first 2 years the restriction is that she has to work for her current company. Thereafter she can apply for an unrestricted blue card which can be renewed ad infinitum.

Moving to the US for example, yeah much harder. She wanted to go there and couldn't dream to get a VISA (whereas I got a L1 immediately). But there are a lot of other countries that are options.

Compared to the US, for me the experience now of getting a VISA for Europe is not very hard. And I'm not a special snowflake. They are just happy to have anyone that will contribute to the country.
 
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ponder

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
70,955
#79
How hard is it really?

I mean my girlfriend got a job as a recruiter in Europe and she immediately got a blue card (permanent residency in any EU state). The first 2 years the restriction is that she has to work for her current company. Thereafter she can apply for an unrestricted blue card which can be renewed ad infinitum.

Moving to the US for example, yeah much harder. She wanted to go there and couldn't dream to get a VISA (whereas I got a L1 immediately). But there are a lot of other countries that are options.

Compared to the US, for me the experience now of getting a VISA for Europe is not very hard. And I'm not a special snowflake. They are just happy to have anyone that will contribute to the country.

Times obviously changed but I could have gotton into the US fully sponsored (signed contracts) in a matter of weeks in the late 90s whereas the EU was a red tape abortion. Biggest regret of my life in retrospect.

Bottom line it's not all that easy really, you need to be sponsored, know people in the industry etc to motivate on your behalf etc these days.
 

stormiezzz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
135
#80
I reckon you nailed it. I fully agree.

I'm not sure why all the fuss. The ANC are guaranteed to get more than 50% next year. So no need to speak of coalitions and what have you. The land issue will also just go away. Its all about elections... and whats one more unfulfilled promise to the masses, anyway?
 
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