Are SA laws really unjust?

[Nod]

Yeah but you can arguably say you werent aware of the extent of the attrocities committed before '94.

I don't think normal really knew exactly what happened in those days. Even the ex-president claim to not know about much of what happened.

The question should rather be: Can we learn from the past, take that what was good, and build on it, or are we going to focus on getting back at everybody that might have wronged someone?

The problem with the whole "eye for an eye" thing, is that it never ends, and will destroy all parties in the end.

 

[icyrus]

In my experience, EE wouldn't have been 'forced' if the industry appeared to be willing to embrace transformation. What's worse is that even at a parastastal like CSIR, its still a problem from my experience and the feedback I get since I left years ago.

You say some companies still discriminate racially - that they won't employ suitable candidates just because they are black. I say the solution to that is that there should be (are) laws against this kind of discrimination, but thats not what EE is about.

EE is not about protecting people from discrimination. It is about discriminating in a way the government deems acceptable.

 

[dlk001]

You say some companies still discriminate racially - that they won't employ suitable candidates just because they are black.

Oh, i'm sorry to give the wrong impression. Racial discrimination happens still but its not about not employing suitable candidates. The one I'm referring to is about how those candidates are treated in the workplace. Again, I'm only referring to my experience and of my colleagues I keep in touch with. Workplace is so diverse and everyone has their story or their version of the same story.

EE is not about protecting people from discrimination. It is about discriminating in a way the government deems acceptable.

Like I said above, everyone has their version of the same story. My story about EE is that its about equity which was lacking and non-existent before.

Yes, there are many intenses of implementation of EE where it has been/being used as an excuse to employ the wrong candidate. People from all angles have abused it. I've seen it with my eyes as a staff association rep while working at a major company.

I do feel that government sets the rules with little input from industry. As a result, implementation of those rules becomes a problem. Both parties are to blame for that from what I've seen.

 

[Syndyre]

Oh, i'm sorry to give the wrong impression. Racial discrimination happens still but its not about not employing suitable candidates. The one I'm referring to is about how those candidates are treated in the workplace. Again, I'm only referring to my experience and of my colleagues I keep in touch with. Workplace is so diverse and everyone has their story or their version of the same story.

What do you mean specifically?

 

[Vrotappel]

There is no Apartheid 2.0.

Economic Apartheid. But I am of the opinion it is more akin to cutting off the nose to spite the face.

Facts are clearly showing that the economy is not growing fast enough to support the population of SA. In fact poverty (as measured internationally, not the way Mbeki and Mugabe measures it) has increased over the last 15 years. BEE is only benefiting a select few. EE and AA chases much needed skills out of SA and contributes to the decline of SA's international competitiveness.

It's called history. Look it up. The specific remark was in reference to '76 and the gunning down of children who refused to be taught in afrikaans. There were lots and lots of other examples of police gunning down protesters, murdering political opponents etc. etc. Have you been asleep the last 15 years or are you just in denial?

Still waiting for the bit where you show it was policy. How many farmers have been killed over the last 13 years. Is that ANC 'policy'?

 

[dlk001]

What do you mean specifically?

I mean discrimination such as:

1. Salary
2. Career paths
3. Tokenism

No 1 is not a big conversation issue as before amongst my professonal collegues but 2 and 3 are still a problem.

 

[Syndyre]

I mean discrimination such as:

1. Salary
2. Career paths
3. Tokenism

No 1 is not a big conversation issue as before amongst my professonal collegues but 2 and 3 are still a problem.

Ok, was going to say I thought AA salaries were generally higher than the norm. That's why I think we need a law to deal with genuine discrimination like this, which would IMO be more effective outside of a BEE/AA framework.

 

[dlk001]

Ok, was going to say I thought AA salaries were generally higher than the norm. That's why I think we need a law to deal with genuine discrimination like this, which would IMO be more effective outside of a BEE/AA framework.

There has been a massive improvement certainly.

 

[Syndyre]

There has been a massive improvement certainly.

Supply and demand I suppose, there seems to be quite a shortage of qualified AA people in a lot of areas.

 

[GougedEye]

Still waiting for the bit where you show it was policy. How many farmers have been killed over the last 13 years. Is that ANC 'policy'?

Already did. I don't think any rational person can deny this.

If you can show that killing the farmers is being carried out by the police and other state officials on the orders of government then I would say yes it is. But then thats not the case now is it?

 

[alloytoo]

Again not true.

Yes I know about the dubious analysis you are basing this on. Two things you should know about the institues survey. The results of that analysis conflict with all other economic data we have available. The methods they used to reach these conclusions are not available either. Immediate cause for a rational reader to raise an eyebrow in suspicion.

What the survey / analysis actually found was that the number of people living on less than x US dollars a day has increased. This arbitrarily pegs the dollar as the unit for determining poverty and ignores the fact that the exchange rate has changed radically in this time period. Now if the poor were buying bread in the US this would mean a lot more, but the fact is they are not. We don't know what else may be wrong about the survey as, like I said, they don't want to tell how it was done.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

The value of the Rand against the dollar is a factor of inflation, the diminished buying power of our currency is reflected in that decline.

In 1994 the value of the Rand in April was 3.63/$ This month it's trading at about R6.70/$. Thats a decline of 46% over the period.

However if you factor in the official inflation figures since '94 the the Dollar should be worth about R7.85 that's worse, thats 54% down.

On paper, if anything our currency is overvalued against the dollar, however the Rand has tracked the Dollar recently as it's declined against the Pound and the Euro. That seems to explains the difference.

Ignore inflation at your peril.

 

[alloytoo]

Careful with that chip on your shoulder - it was a simile.

I voted in the 1994 election with millions of others hoping for a better future for everyone. We've all (except for the Shaik Family and the ANC high committee) been horrible let down.

 

[GougedEye]

I voted in the 1994 election with millions of others hoping for a better future for everyone. We've all (except for the Shaik Family and the ANC high committee) been horrible let down.

Basically agree with you. Could be worse, but could be a lot better.

 

[alloytoo]

Basically agree with you. Could be worse, but could be a lot better.

Oh without a doubt we could all be engaged in a horrible civil war (or already dead.)

 

[Cataphract]

I voted in the 1994 election with millions of others hoping for a better future for everyone. We've all (except for the Shaik Family and the ANC high committee) been horrible let down.

Why? Did you expect a "South African" African government to be different from every other African government there has ever been?

 

[Slooth]

Ok, there seems to be a trend that AA/BBBEE should be class based (well, from what I interpret from the above posts) and not raced based, however is that not in essence the same? The poorest of the poor in this country are still Black, and at what point do you say, okay you are well off enough and thus do not qualify?

And to think of it most white people fall in the middle to richer class of the country, would they not still be excluded?

Someone made a valid point in a post previous to yours. The way it's currectly implimented isn't helping the masses in the townships. The real majority and not the few small black elite it's produced.

 

[alloytoo]

Someone made a valid point in a post previous to yours. The way it's currectly implimented isn't helping the masses in the townships. The real majority and not the few small black elite it's produced.

Article in the Natal Mercury, poor Indians kids loose out to Wealthy black kids.