"Are we intoxicated by the whine"

killadoob said:
He says a few countries as if it is only a few.

Damn lance it is majority of africa not a few countries. Sadly lance we cannot buck the trend, lance in africa it seems as soon as a black government is in power the country is destined for destruction (yes call me a racist i know it's coming). Can you see the signs in this country? I can see the signs of this country not bucking the trend and i can see signs of this country following the trend.
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What? The majority of Africa went down the same path we did? The majority of Africa had a system called apartheid? Yip, I am the ignorant one again.... :rolleyes:
 
So wait are you saying SA is different somehow? The key ingredient is already in place, corrupt government.

Sadly apartheid or not this is the destructive ingredient that plagues africa and it is in full swing, so yes you are ignorant if you cannot see that.
 
DJ... said:
It's this kind of attitude that irks me the most to be honest. You won't get involved in your community, yet will bitch when something happens. You donate to a charity so believe that's enough - you've done your part. And I'd hazard a guess that you believe that all these issues are government's responsibility and absolutely not yours. Well therein lies the problem, because you;ve faced reality and realised that government is inept, yet you do absolutely nothing about it, apart form bitch and moan and vote "anyone but ANC". It's a sad state of affairs when people give up without even trying to fight for something you clearly believe in...
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No, and i will disagree with you here....

So, you define me "doing nothing" as:

* Pay my taxes
* Support charities
* Working [ which in turn means training unskilled people]
* Not doing any sort of crime
* Voting

Is that "doing nothing" ? You want me to start a revolution?

So just because I don't serve on the local community boards, i must shut up about all the sht in this country? are you fscking kidding me? I DO EVERYTHING I NEED TO DO TO BE A POSITIVE IN THE COUNTRY, can you say the same for our government?
 
I thought the government was there to do something for it's people, i never knew the people were there to do the governments job.
 
Bizkit87 said:
No, and i will disagree with you here....

So, you define me "doing nothing" as:

* Pay my taxes
* Support charities
* Working [ which in turn means training unskilled people]
* Not doing any sort of crime
* Voting

Is that "doing nothing" ? You want me to start a revolution?
Click to expand...

WTF?

Yip, that's pretty much doing nothing in the greater scheme of things.

Paying taxes? - we all do.
Supporting charities? - most people who can, do this - nothing special, sorry.
Working? - er, that's not much of an achievement. But kudos to you if you think it is.
Not being a criminal? - again, kudos. If you believe that is contributing to society then you're warped.
Voting? - er, thanks for that. Most of SA does.

If this is your benchmark for being positive, then every citizen in SA is positive. That's bollocks.

Sorry, I just don't think we're going to be able to have a debate like adults here if you can't even contemplate just one thing that you can contribute in your own individual capacity that doesn't involve donating the odd buck to a charity. It's kinda like passing the buck. Go read the other thread about apartheid's legacies if you would like to see people actually thinking about ways in which they can contribute to society, over and above paying taxes and hoping everything will turn out A-OK...
 
So DJ give some things we can do to change the crime rate and corrupt government. Would love to know what i could do to change it. Bare in mind we work during the day. So weekdays are pretty much out of the question.

Patrol the streets?

Where do we start? This optimism, stop whining and do something sounds interesting. I keep hearing from lance and now you that we do nothing to help stop the major problems in this country so enlighten us. Maybe make a thread about it so the rest of the forum can learn how to stop corruption and crime.
 
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DJ... said:
WTF?

Yip, that's pretty much doing nothing in the greater scheme of things.

Paying taxes? - we all do.
Supporting charities? - most people who can, do this - nothing special, sorry.
Working? - er, that's not much of an achievement. But kudos to you if you think it is.
Not being a criminal? - again, kudos. If you believe that is contributing to society then you're warped.
Voting? - er, thanks for that. Most of SA does.

If this is your benchmark for being positive, then every citizen in SA is positive. That's bollocks.

Sorry, I just don't think we're going to be able to have a debate like adults here if you can't even contemplate just one thing that you can contribute in your own individual capacity that doesn't involve donating the odd buck to a charity. It's kinda like passing the buck. Go read the other thread about apartheid's legacies if you would like to see people actually thinking about ways in which they can contribute to society, over and above paying taxes and hoping everything will turn out A-OK...
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Well, it might seem trivial, but when you think about it, if everyone "just" did the above mentioned, where would you place this country? huh?

I'm not doing any harm to any person in this country, that much more than I can say for <enter amount of criminals here> other people...

I'm just fascinated that you think "just" doing those things aren't having a positive influence on this country.... *sigh*

what i do find interesting, is you are quick to tell me "how am not helping", what are you doing? if 45 million people "just" do the same as I do, tell me honestly where you think we'll be as a country?
 
killadoob said:
I thought the government was there to do something for it's people, i never knew the people were there to do the governments job.
Click to expand...

That attitude is absolutely pathetic. If you couldn't care less about contributing over and above paying your taxes and voting, then quit the whining. If you're actually willing to do something about our inept government, then we can talk. Right now all I see from you killa, is that you couldn't give a rat's ass about doing something positive, you prefer to just moan about all the k@k things while placing your index fingers formly between your ears and going "nanananananana" about all the good.

In fact your attitude breeds negativity. You're not even willing to contemplate how you could make a difference.

Let me give you a quick analogy: if your boss was an absolute moron with no brains whatsoever and was dragging your department and the company down - would you A - sit around the water-cooler bitching and moaning? or B - do something about it, because it affects you directly?

And I'm expecting you to respond and say "well what am I supposed to do about him?" And therein lies the problem...
 
killadoob said:
So DJ give some things we can do to change the crime rate and corrupt government. Would love to know what i could do to change it. Bare in mind we work during the day. So weekdays are pretty much out of the question.

Patrol the streets?

Where do we start? This optimism, stop whining and do something sounds interesting. I keep hearing from lance and now you that we do nothing to help stop the major problems in this country so enlighten us. Maybe make a thread about it so the rest of the forum can learn how to stop corruption and crime.
Click to expand...

To avoid a duplication of efforts, please read the "apartheid legacy" thread being discussed in OT right now. I posted a few things there.

However I'm not saying that we are the ones who should be dealing with the major issues. My gripe is the attitude which results in no actions whatsoever. IMO our issues lie at ground-level and we are all partly to blame for it. And we can all contribute towards fixing these things. Be them small or large...
 
DJ... said:
That attitude is absolutely pathetic. If you couldn't care less about contributing over and above paying your taxes and voting, then quit the whining. If you're actually willing to do something about our inept government, then we can talk. Right now all I see from you killa, is that you couldn't give a rat's ass about doing something positive, you prefer to just moan about all the k@k things while placing your index fingers formly between your ears and going "nanananananana" about all the good.

In fact your attitude breeds negativity. You're not even willing to contemplate how you could make a difference.

Let me give you a quick analogy: if your boss was an absolute moron with no brains whatsoever and was dragging your department and the company down - would you A - sit around the water-cooler bitching and moaning? or B - do something about it, because it affects you directly?

And I'm expecting you to respond and say "well what am I supposed to do about him?" And therein lies the problem...
Click to expand...

ok mother teresa, tell us what you do, for a shining example of how to improve this country ......
 
LancelotSA said:
No! It was Jackie Sunset!



Unfortunately you cannot dictate who others vote for, however, your single vote for the opposition makes them that small bit stronger. Your not voting at all negates that. If everyone who was going to vote for an opposition party decided not to vote as it was not worth it, what would that mean? It would mean a 100% majority for the ANC. It would mean decisions would get pushed through parliament with no opposition.

How long have you been living in this country? Did you not know this?
Click to expand...

But if you don't like the ANC it seems that the argument for the sheeple, and those closely aligned, is that there is noone to vote for but the ANC. In that case, rather don't vote.
 
@DJ ... you forgot an option or two which seem to me to be relevant in our situation ;)
scenario: your boss is an absolute moron with no brains whatsoever and is dragging your department and the company down. Do you ...
A - sit around the water-cooler bitching and moaning (what the hell are you supposed to do about him anyway?)
B - do something about it, because it affects you directly
B(i) Do the bosses job for him and allow him to bask in the benefits he receives for your hard work
B(ii) Confront him with the issues and possible solutions to same issues and hope he changes his evil ways.
B(iii) if (ii) fails take that evidence to the big boss (who hopefully will light a fire under the arse of little boss or get rid of the fskr)
C - sit around the water-cooler smiling at your colleagues and pretending that all is not so bad in happy-job land
D - find another job
 
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Bizkit87 said:
what i do find interesting, is you are quick to tell me "how am not helping", what are you doing? if 45 million people "just" do the same as I do, tell me honestly where you think we'll be as a country?
Click to expand...

Are you honestly going to try pull the "you're not doing anything so why should I" excuse? But to state a few:

My family was actively involved against apartheid to the point that some could only return to SA in 1992.
I coached football and cricket at a local under-priveliged school.
I regularly volunteer at charity organisations and try to stay up to date with their happenings.
I attend CPF meetings and contribute towards the discussions. I even try to take action where necessary.
I too donate to charities.
I promote my country to tourists and often find myself hosting them or taking them out.
I also advise them on how to stay safe, instead of merely telling them they're in a sh|thole.
When hiring for positions within my companies, I don't abide by BEE because I have to, I actively recruit underprivileged people who I believe can do the job or will be able to with some guidance. I don't just train because I have to.
I make my employees (especially those without much) feel comfortable to talk to me - if there are issues, I help as and where I can. And no, I do not get taken advantage of.
I've been to township meetings where the leaders actually promote that you steal from your boss - they do it because they then come back and all share in the spoils. At first I was livid when I heard about it, but when I addressed the issue, I realised it was out of survival that they did this. Slowly they are learning to trust me and are learning that every time they do this, someone gets fired and someone else has to steal for them. Circular bullshyte that they are coming to realise will never emancipate them from their situation - only entrench it. (and yet it's supposedly the likes of yself who have our heads in the sand?)

I'm not trying to portray myself as some hero either, however I believe there are many things we (including me) could be doing more of to promote a happier and less crime-ridden country - yet we don't even give it two seconds of thought throughout the day. Yet we're quick to bitch and moan about things...

What really gets to me is that optimists are constantly told that we have no idea what's going on in our country, when in fact the opposite is probably true.

killa - you're the kinda guy who imo will never amount to anything in life. Sorry, but that's just my experience. People who are willing to make a change are the ones who usually achieve great things. For you, you might retire one day with a barely adequate pension/provident and feel you achieved something. For me, I'd be horrible disappointed if that were to happen - that's the attitude I have about my country too. I don't believe it's a bad thing, and to be honest all the mocking about it just makes me feel that your ilk are just plain jealous...
 
Bizkit87 said:
ok mother teresa, tell us what you do, for a shining example of how to improve this country ......
Click to expand...

If you want to involve yourself in a serious thread and be taken seriously, then try to act like an adult, and I'll treat you as such. The name calling will not end well...
 
McSack said:
@DJ ... you forgot an option or two which seem to me to be relevant in our situation ;)
scenario: your boss is an absolute moron with no brains whatsoever and is dragging your department and the company down. Do you ...
A - sit around the water-cooler bitching and moaning (what the hell are you supposed to do about him anyway?)
B - do something about it, because it affects you directly
B(i) Do the bosses job for him and allow him to bask in the benefits he receives for your hard work
B(ii) Confront him with the issues and possible solutions to same issues and hope he changes his evil ways.
B(iii) if (ii) fails take that evidence to the big boss (who hopefully will light a fire under the arse of little boss or get rid of the fskr)
C - sit around the water-cooler smiling at your colleagues and pretending that all is not so bad in happy-job land
D - find another job
Click to expand...

OK granted, that was simplified analogy (I felt it was necessary)

However none of the additions you've made really change my point though...
 
DJ... said:
OK granted, that was simplified analogy (I felt it was necessary)

However none of the additions you've made really change my point though...
Click to expand...

True.
The plan I guess is to have a pretty balance view which is neither blindly optimistic nor rabidly pessimistic.

[edit ... and there are a fair number of forumites who fit into one of those 2 categories]
 
DJ... said:
Are you honestly going to try pull the "you're not doing anything so why should I" excuse? But to state a few:

My family was actively involved against apartheid to the point that some could only return to SA in 1992.
I coached football and cricket at a local under-priveliged school.
I regularly volunteer at charity organisations and try to stay up to date with their happenings.
I attend CPF meetings and contribute towards the discussions. I even try to take action where necessary.
I too donate to charities.
I promote my country to tourists and often find myself hosting them or taking them out.
I also advise them on how to stay safe, instead of merely telling them they're in a sh|thole.
When hiring for positions within my companies, I don't abide by BEE because I have to, I actively recruit underprivileged people who I believe can do the job or will be able to with some guidance. I don't just train because I have to.
I make my employees (especially those without much) feel comfortable to talk to me - if there are issues, I help as and where I can. And no, I do not get taken advantage of.
I've been to township meetings where the leaders actually promote that you steal from your boss - they do it because they then come back and all share in the spoils. At first I was livid when I heard about it, but when I addressed the issue, I realised it was out of survival that they did this. Slowly they are learning to trust me and are learning that every time they do this, someone gets fired and someone else has to steal for them. Circular bullshyte that they are coming to realise will never emancipate them from their situation - only entrench it. (and yet it's supposedly the likes of yself who have our heads in the sand?)

I'm not trying to portray myself as some hero either, however I believe there are many things we (including me) could be doing more of to promote a happier and less crime-ridden country - yet we don't even give it two seconds of thought throughout the day. Yet we're quick to bitch and moan about things...

What really gets to me is that optimists are constantly told that we have no idea what's going on in our country, when in fact the opposite is probably true.

killa - you're the kinda guy who imo will never amount to anything in life. Sorry, but that's just my experience. People who are willing to make a change are the ones who usually achieve great things. For you, you might retire one day with a barely adequate pension/provident and feel you achieved something. For me, I'd be horrible disappointed if that were to happen - that's the attitude I have about my country too. I don't believe it's a bad thing, and to be honest all the mocking about it just makes me feel that your ilk are just plain jealous...
Click to expand...

if all of this is true, then i applaud you, and well done on it.

But please i beg of you... show me where:

24 hours a day:

i usually try and sleep about 8 of them.

16 hours left:

I work between 8 and sometimes 11 of them

8 - 5 hours left:

This is the gap in which i basically have to live my life in. Most of it now is spend studying [I'm trying my masters, and another SAP certification].

Do you suggest i neglect my own life, just so I can go out and make SA a better place, you guys are all saying "just do something small", then we do something small to help, and its not good enough for you guys...

anyway, i'm out of this thread, as this can go on forever, and Lance has not once answered the questions i posed to him [big surprise].

I'm doing more than enough [I've not once mentioned church related work, but to do that on here opens up a whole new form of abuse], and i know I'm not doing anything to harm South Africa, if you think thats not enough, then thats your problem...

I just find it hilarious that you guys are saying just because we basically don't devout our lives to fixing this country, we should shut up about murders/rape/corruption etc etc etc....


I'm not trying to portray myself as some hero either, however I believe there are many things we (including me) could be doing more of to promote a happier and less crime-ridden country - yet we don't even give it two seconds of thought throughout the day. Yet we're quick to bitch and moan about things...
Click to expand...

ok, like i apparently asked so insulting before. WHAT CAN BE DONE?
 
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DJ... said:
If you want to involve yourself in a serious thread and be taken seriously, then try to act like an adult, and I'll treat you as such. The name calling will not end well...
Click to expand...

have i somehow insulted you? i though mother teresa was a good person...
 
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