Article: Israel attacks barbaric: ANC

[Musicmp3]

In SA, the elderley and farmers are daily been brutally assaulted and killed.

ANC, what is your take on this happening under your thick-skinned noses? Look closer to home first and get your own house in order.

A house that is falling apart at an alarming rate.

 

[assassin]

You seem to forget the 3 boys that were kidnapped and murdered by Hamas militants in the run-up to the current situation (I am not even mentioning the terror attacks that came before that). The Hamas war is more than just rockets.

You seem to ignore that the rockets coming from Gaza are intended to cause death. Israel has not suffered casualties from the rockets because every building in Israel has a bomb shelter (and in the south of Israel almost every bus stop is also a bomb shelter). Coupled with the Iron Dome which shoots down 90% of rockets that are heading for populated areas, and you can see why there are no casualties. Israel cares about its civilians. They are not kept in harms way as human shields or as cannon fodder to display to the media. The lack of casualties is not due to a lack of intent from Hamas.

You also seem to ignore that air strikes with a danger of collateral damage are preceded by pamphlet drops, sms and phone calls to Gaza residents. The IDF actually warns the population (and thus their enemy) of the impending strikes. And yet, surprisingly, the areas in question are not vacated to try and preserve life. Why do you think that is?

Every death in this situation, whether Israeli or Palestinian, is a win-win situation for Hamas.

Nobody ignored the despicable murder of the 3 Israeli teens and also the 1 Palestinian youth (you chose to ignore).

I asked again and again where do you go when you get these? And where do you go once your home is now a pile of rubble ?

What happens to kids who survive when their family is killed by these bombs? By your justification they are well within their rights to extract revenge against Israel (not my opinion)

A densley populated area getting tons of bombs dropped on it will destroy homes/buildings and any infrastructure. Israels blockade restricts building materials, so what happens after the Israeli operation ?

 

[assassin]

think there may be a shortage of civilian casualties too considering most of the images coming out of this conflict have actually been of Syria

speaking of which..cosatu, anc? nothing to say about assad?

This always seems to be the excuse when the civilian casualties are brought up, are you saying Israel and Assad are the same ?

 

[OrbitalDawn]

You seem to forget the 3 boys that were kidnapped and murdered by Hamas militants in the run-up to the current situation (I am not even mentioning the terror attacks that came before that). The Hamas war is more than just rockets.

You seem to ignore that the rockets coming from Gaza are intended to cause death. Israel has not suffered casualties from the rockets because every building in Israel has a bomb shelter (and in the south of Israel almost every bus stop is also a bomb shelter). Coupled with the Iron Dome which shoots down 90% of rockets that are heading for populated areas, and you can see why there are no casualties. Israel cares about its civilians. They are not kept in harms way as human shields or as cannon fodder to display to the media. The lack of casualties is not due to a lack of intent from Hamas.

You also seem to ignore that air strikes with a danger of collateral damage are preceded by pamphlet drops, sms and phone calls to Gaza residents. The IDF actually warns the population (and thus their enemy) of the impending strikes. And yet, surprisingly, the areas in question are not vacated to try and preserve life. Why do you think that is?

Every death in this situation, whether Israeli or Palestinian, is a win-win situation for Hamas.

I don't give a flying fig leaf if Hamas is exterminated like the vermin they are. My concern is with the Palestinian civilians who get butchered. See this post for what I think they should be doing about it.

And you're ignoring the continued aggression (through illegal settlement expansions, killings and detentions) of Israel, the horrific killing of the youth by Jewish extremists. And you're ignoring the IDF who used Palestinian civilians as human shields.

Where should they evacuate to? And what happens to their homes? It all gets demolished and they should just say 'oh well, tough luck I guess'?

 

[thestaggy]

No, but purposefully and repeatedly killing civilians is simply not justifiable. That they could flatten Gaza if they wanted is irrelevant.

A schoolyard analogy:

- Kid A takes kid B's lunch.
- Kid B shoves kid A in the chest.
- Kid A takes a sledgehammer and caves kid B's head in.

Why don't they take the Munich approach? Small groups of operators go in and take out rocket installations. Why do they need to constantly bash the civilian populace into the ground?

And long-term, they need to stop stoking the aggression through their own actions. As I've said numerous times - it's in Israel's best interest to support the establishment of a prosperous and flourishing Palestine. Remove the fertiliser and soil from which the likes of Hamas grows. Stop giving them new recruits and a reason for existing.

I have already acknowledged that Israel's own actions are part of the problem, but vacating occupied territory is not something that can happen overnight and as such that cannot be used to secure immediate peace. I highly doubt it could happen within 24 - 36 months. All they can do in the interim is stop expanding what they already have and begin the lengthily process of vacating occupied territory. But it isn't just on them and in fact the only immediate solution there is would be the end of Hamas' aggression and the recognition of an Israeli state.

I believe part of the problem with regards to precision teams is the fact that Gaza is so densely populated that movement and extraction will be exceedingly difficult. It would be very hard to move people around in Gaza City without being noticed. A tactical team would be spotted on arrival.

 

[Looney]

I don't give a flying fig leaf if Hamas is exterminated like the vermin they are. My concern is with the Palestinian civilians who get butchered. See this post for what I think they should be doing about it.

And you're ignoring the continued aggression (through illegal settlement expansions, killings and detentions) of Israel, the horrific killing of the youth by Jewish extremists. And you're ignoring the IDF who used Palestinian civilians as human shields.

Where should they evacuate to? And what happens to their homes? It all gets demolished and they should just say 'oh well, tough luck I guess'?

Let me use you as an example in this situation.

This is theoretical and may seem exaggerated, however the concept is still valid.

Let us assume that your home is being targeted by a lunatic madman. The madman has a gun and your family is now in imminent danger. Let us also assume that the madman is surrounded by 5 children and is using them as a human shield to protect himself.

You have a duty to protect your family by any means necessary. Kill or be killed.

Are you just going to let this madman enter your home and put a bullet in your entire family's heads because 5 innocent civilians are protecting him?

I certainly wouldn't. I would pull out my gun, fire a warning shot, warn the children to move out the way so that I can take out this madman. If they do not comply, then I have no choice but to fire at the madman and accept that these civilians may either get injured in the process or worse, death.

While I don't condone the killing of innocent civilians, if push comes to shove and I am forced to use deadly force in order to protect my family. I will not hesitate to do so.

This is war. Kill or be killed.

Again, this was a theoretical example, extremely far fetched, yet the point I am making is valid.

 

[gorgamin]

The current ANC government is a completely different generation to those who planted those bombs and killed innocent people. The currently employed market(including all citizens) is also a completely different generation to those who voted for a system where black, indian, asian and coloured couldn't vote, and were treated unfairly. All the people who were part of the screw-up that was pre-1994 South Africa are nearly dead, or close to pension. Please can we forget it and get on with our lives. The infrastructure wasn't all that great, and our economy was quite far into bankruptcy, with massive IMF and World bank loans holding the censored and religious state together while being sanctioned.

What Israel is doing is wrong, no matter how you look at it. They've stolen the entire area(yes, stolen, go look at the establishment of the state of Israel) The UN helped them do it. Israel bribed most of the UN member states with backing from the US and UK into accepting the partition plan. It's a giant farce if you look at it. How can you just take a country because you believe the land has religious significance. I grant you have to be loyal to your culture if you are an Israeli, or be sympathetic to the Israeli state if you are a Jew, but the way this was handled was wrong. Palestinians are treated as sub-human. The same way that Nazi-Germany mistreated and murdered the Jews, is being propagated right in your own (stolen) country Israel!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

 

[assassin]

@looney By your theoretical example the same applies to the Innocent Palestinians that get caught in the war?

Your example sets up perpetual war

 

[Nicodeamus]

The current ANC government is a completely different generation to those who planted those bombs and killed innocent people. The currently employed market(including all citizens) is also a completely different generation to those who voted for a system where black, indian, asian and coloured couldn't vote, and were treated unfairly. All the people who were part of the screw-up that was pre-1994 South Africa are nearly dead, or close to pension. Please can we forget it and get on with our lives. The infrastructure wasn't all that great, and our economy was quite far into bankruptcy, with massive IMF and World bank loans holding the censored and religious state together while being sanctioned.

What Israel is doing is wrong, no matter how you look at it. They've stolen the entire area(yes, stolen, go look at the establishment of the state of Israel) The UN helped them do it. Israel bribed most of the UN member states with backing from the US and UK into accepting the partition plan. It's a giant farce if you look at it. How can you just take a country because you believe the land has religious significance. I grant you have to be loyal to your culture if you are an Israeli, or be sympathetic to the Israeli state if you are a Jew, but the way this was handled was wrong. Palestinians are treated as sub-human. The same way that Nazi-Germany mistreated and murdered the Jews, is being propagated right in your own (stolen) country Israel!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

erm no it wasn't Stolen. The jews lived in Palastine since it was a British colony and even long before that.

 

[Sinbad]

The current ANC government is a completely different generation to those who planted those bombs and killed innocent people.

The current ANC government RELIES on the legacy of the struggle to keep the voters voting for them.

 

[assassin]

I have already acknowledged that Israel's own actions are part of the problem, but vacating occupied territory is not something that can happen overnight and as such that cannot be used to secure immediate peace. I highly doubt it could happen within 24 - 36 months. All they can do in the interim is stop expanding what they already have and begin the lengthily process of vacating occupied territory. But it isn't just on them and in fact the only immediate solution there is would be the end of Hamas' aggression and the recognition of an Israeli state.

I believe part of the problem with regards to precision teams is the fact that Gaza is so densely populated that movement and extraction will be exceedingly difficult. It would be very hard to move people around in Gaza City without being noticed. A tactical team would be spotted on arrival.

There are other considerations besides HAMAS as well, the residents on the occupied territories aren't the friendliest bunch. They are often known to take out, pricetag attacks, burn olive farms and attack Palestinians.

Its aggression from both sides.

 

[LazyLion]

What Israel is doing is wrong, no matter how you look at it. They've stolen the entire area(yes, stolen, go look at the establishment of the state of Israel) The UN helped them do it. Israel bribed most of the UN member states with backing from the US and UK into accepting the partition plan. It's a giant farce if you look at it. How can you just take a country because you believe the land has religious significance. I grant you have to be loyal to your culture if you are an Israeli, or be sympathetic to the Israeli state if you are a Jew, but the way this was handled was wrong. Palestinians are treated as sub-human. The same way that Nazi-Germany mistreated and murdered the Jews, is being propagated right in your own (stolen) country Israel!

Utter rubbish.

 

[Cray]

Let me use you as an example in this situation.

This is theoretical and may seem exaggerated, however the concept is still valid.

Let us assume that your home is being targeted by a lunatic madman. The madman has a gun and your family is now in imminent danger. Let us also assume that the madman is surrounded by 5 children and is using them as a human shield to protect himself.

You have a duty to protect your family by any means necessary. Kill or be killed.

Are you just going to let this madman enter your home and put a bullet in your entire family's heads because 5 innocent civilians are protecting him?

I certainly wouldn't. I would pull out my gun, fire a warning shot, warn the children to move out the way so that I can take out this madman. If they do not comply, then I have no choice but to fire at the madman and accept that these civilians may either get injured in the process or worse, death.

While I don't condone the killing of innocent civilians, if push comes to shove and I am forced to use deadly force in order to protect my family. I will not hesitate to do so.

This is war. Kill or be killed.

Again, this was a theoretical example, extremely far fetched, yet the point I am making is valid.

And yet there have been no Isreali's killed by rocket fire in this latest exchange.

Try this hypothetical, there is a house with a murderer. That murderer may or may not kill again, this murderer lives with other occupants of the house some of whom are children and may not be aware of his crimes. In order get at the murderer the police level the house with artillery- killing everyone in the house, does this sound reasonable to you?

 

[gorgamin]

erm no it wasn't Stolen. The jews lived in Palastine since it was a British colony and even long before that.

Yes, it was. Go read some more.

 

[yebocan]

This is has been going on for centuries.

Let them have a full on War and get it over with. Once side wins other loses and the world moves on...

...and no end in sight...merry go round...

 

[gorgamin]

Utter rubbish.

Go read some more, instead of relying on your opinions.

 

[thestaggy]

There are other considerations besides HAMAS as well, the residents on the occupied territories aren't the friendliest bunch. They are often known to take out, pricetag attacks, burn olive farms and attack Palestinians.

Its aggression from both sides.

Good grief, please read.

I have already acknowledged that Israel's own actions are part of the problem, but vacating occupied territory is not something that can happen overnight and as such that cannot be used to secure immediate peace. I highly doubt it could happen within 24 - 36 months. All they can do in the interim is stop expanding what they already have and begin the lengthily process of vacating occupied territory.

The settlement issue is the one that will take the longest to resolve. Hamas and the Arab World can do their part in the interim while Israel starts correcting her own mess.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

I have already acknowledged that Israel's own actions are part of the problem, but vacating occupied territory is not something that can happen overnight and as such that cannot be used to secure immediate peace. I highly doubt it could happen within 24 - 36 months. All they can do in the interim is stop expanding what they already have and begin the lengthily process of vacating occupied territory. But it isn't just on them and in fact the only immediate solution there is would be the end of Hamas' aggression and the recognition of an Israeli state.

I believe part of the problem with regards to precision teams is the fact that Gaza is so densely populated that movement and extraction will be exceedingly difficult. It would be very hard to move people around in Gaza City without being noticed. A tactical team would be spotted on arrival.

And they'll say they won't stop until Israel stops expanding and vacates, stops detaining scores of Palestinians, stops blockading them etc., which is backed by history since Israel doesn't seem to ever plan to leave those areas. Round goes the circle.

Let me use you as an example in this situation.

This is theoretical and may seem exaggerated, however the concept is still valid.

Let us assume that your home is being targeted by a lunatic madman. The madman has a gun and your family is now in imminent danger. Let us also assume that the madman is surrounded by 5 children and is using them as a human shield to protect himself.

You have a duty to protect your family by any means necessary. Kill or be killed.

Are you just going to let this madman enter your home and put a bullet in your entire family's heads because 5 innocent civilians are protecting him?

I certainly wouldn't. I would pull out my gun, fire a warning shot, warn the children to move out the way so that I can take out this madman. If they do not comply, then I have no choice but to fire at the madman and accept that these civilians may either get injured in the process or worse, death.

While I don't condone the killing of innocent civilians, if push comes to shove and I am forced to use deadly force in order to protect my family. I will not hesitate to do so.

This is war. Kill or be killed.

Again, this was a theoretical example, extremely far fetched, yet the point I am making is valid.

And it's still valid if you switch around the participants. A bomb also does not discriminate, an individual shooter can.

And my point is that not all Palestinians are madmen or lunatics. They have legitimate grievances against what Israel is doing. But Israel's own actions alienates any potential Palestinian allies that they could have. Hamas' reason for existing in the first place needs to be addressed.

 

[Nicodeamus]

Go read some more, instead of relying on your opinions.

Hey, I can also read some crackpot conspiracy theories, but the believe that Israel was ''stolen'' is equatable to believing that the moonlanding never happened, that 12 jewish bankers control the world or that the jews were really behind the holocaust.

 

[Nicodeamus]

And my point is that not all Palestinians are madmen or lunatics. They have legitimate grievances against what Israel is doing. But Israel's own actions alienates any potential Palestinian allies that they could have. Hamas' reason for existing in the first place needs to be addressed.

This is exactly how terrorist organisations like Hamas operate, they leave Israel with no choice, but to target those civilian outposts. Israel has to first eliminate the bases of these bombs and sadly children do get in the way. This is also how hamas tries to get the confidence of the already polarized communities. Show them blood and violence and you win the civilians over. It is a sick situation.