Article: Israel attacks barbaric: ANC

[daveza]

So targeted retaliation is barbaric, but firing random rockets into populated areas by the hamas is okay?

ftfy

 

[daveza]

In the event of Israel committing to territorial changes Hamas needs to guarantee Israel that she will be left alone. Israel will not do anything that may compromise here safety without it first being guaranteed. Hamas can cease all aggressive actions and acknowledge Israel before Israel can vacate/hand over land.

So hamas must capitulate on the basis that Israel will eventually remove all the illegal settlements.

That ain't going to happen.

How about for each illegal settlement removed Hamas will cease-fire for a period of say three months.

Another settlement, another 3 months.

Dumb idea ? Not as dumb as doing the same as they have done for years and years.

 

[LazyLion]

So hamas must capitulate on the basis that Israel will eventually remove all the illegal settlements.

That ain't going to happen.

How about for each illegal settlement removed Hamas will cease-fire for a period of say three months.

Another settlement, another 3 months.

Dumb idea ? Not as dumb as doing the same as they have done for years and years.

Would never work. Palestinians don't know how to stop throwing rocks or launching rockets.... even if their leaders told them to.

 

[thestaggy]

So hamas must capitulate on the basis that Israel will eventually remove all the illegal settlements.

That ain't going to happen.

How about for each illegal settlement removed Hamas will cease-fire for a period of say three months.

Another settlement, another 3 months.

Dumb idea ? Not as dumb as doing the same as they have done for years and years.

Halting aggressive actions is not capitulating. It is taking up your end of the bargain in a long-term peace deal.

 

[daveza]

It is taking up your end of the bargain in a long-term peace deal.

That requires trust - and there is none from either side.

 

[thestaggy]

Another element that is often ignored in this debate; Jordan.

The Jordanian population is at the least 50% Palestinian and at the most 80% Palestinian. They maintain no official census of the Palestinian people for what I believe are political reasons.

Many argue that a Palestinian state already exists in all but name.

 

[thestaggy]

That requires trust - and there is none from either side.

Well then bomb each other into oblivion.

 

[daveza]

Well then bomb each other into oblivion.

That appears to be the only idea from either side.

 

[Alan]

Yes, Hamas, not all Palestinians. Which is why Hamas needs to be eradicated and their reason for existing addressed.

Look at this, for example. Here's a potential ally for Israel which they'll only alienate with their actions.

Mahmoud Abbas slams Hamas over rocket attacks on Israel: ‘What are you trying to achieve?’

As if they haven't been down the road with Abbas before or his predecessor Arafat.

Until there is leadership on the Palestinian side with the best interests of Palestinians at heart there will be conflict. If all those billions in aid that's been handed over to the Palestinians had gone to towards uplifting themselves instead of buying weapons and the filling the Swiss bank accounts of their leaders they would be much better off. Israel would have no reason for these kinds of operations and if they did they would be quickly be isolated as a pariah state by world powers. For the west it's a case of cold realpolitik. Israel is infinitely preferable to the alternative regimes in the region. It's why Israel gets away with their excesses.

It doesn't have to be drastic, dunno why you keep emphasising this? It just has to actually happen at some point. The point is they've never indicated any intent on doing it.

Because they have no faith in Hamas. Why would anybody. They give a little Hamas moves in and fires more rockets even deeper into Israel then what?

Utter nonsense. Makes far more sense to use the military to create a DMZ of sorts like that seen in Korea. That way one keeps the danger away from one's civilians while still demonstrating that one intends to give that land back when the hostilities end.

Moving civilians in not only keeps civilians at risk, simply now in a new location but also further demonstrates Israel's commitment to annexing the land permanently.

Then again Alan I'm not surprised you support Israel's actions as justified. Seems to me that both sides are at fault here but there are a whole bunch of whackjobs out there that unwaveringly support Israel in pretty much anything it chooses to do. It appears to be largely some sort of ethno-religious thing at its base.

I said the Israelis justification. Israel has no strategic defence in depth and if you actually bothered to read up about Israeli military and strategic doctrines you'd find they have a major hang up about it. It's the basis for their pre-emptive strike policy used against their Arab neighbour states as well as dealing with the Palestinian issue.

but good luck with the DMZ idea. Hamas will respect it lol.

Ironic you bring up the Korean war. Where the Chinese a spent force used the peace negotiations to buy time to fortify their lines and re-arm along the 38th parallel. Exactly what Hamas uses 'peace negotiations' for after they take a battering from the IDF.

Of course you know nothing abut the Korean war like any Israeli conflict.....

 

[porchrat]

I said the Israelis justification. Israel has no strategic defence in depth and if you actually bothered to read up about Israeli military and strategic doctrines you'd find they have a major hang up about it. It's the basis for their pre-emptive strike policy used against their Arab neighbour states as well as dealing with the Palestinian issue.

but good luck with the DMZ idea. Hamas will respect it lol.

Ironic you bring up the Korean war. Where the Chinese a spent force used the peace negotiations to buy time to fortify their lines and re-arm along the 38th parallel. Exactly what Hamas uses 'peace negotiations' for after they take a battering from the IDF.

Of course you know nothing abut the Korean war like any Israeli conflict.....

Oh no you misunderstand me. I'm not talking about a mutually respected DMZ exactly like the one in Korea where both sides have an agreement in place. I'm actually talking about Israel creating a militarised buffer despite what Hamas want and simply annihilating any unauthorised force that moves across that zone. It will demilitarised in only the sense that there will be no Hamas military in the area. Let the full might of the IDF off the chain in that area. They can do that when they don't have their civilians to worry about. As it is right now all they are doing is annexing land that isn't theirs. Anyone defending that insanity needs their head examined.

In the case of the militarised zone, as opposed to moving civilians in and building permanent settlements, that expresses an attitude from Israel that that isn't their land and that they are happy to move out of that area once the hostilities end. Of course that isn't what Israel seems to want. It seems to consider that land to be property of Israel now and forever.

How someone can support that garbage and then be unhappy when other annexures happen (Russia and Ukraine for example) is beyond me. Meh logic goes out the window with many people when religion gets involved (and don't insult my intelligence by claiming religion isn't a big part of this for a lot of people).

 

[Bobbin]

Oh no you misunderstand me. I'm not talking about a mutually respected DMZ exactly like the one in Korea where both sides have an agreement in place. I'm actually talking about Israel creating a militarised buffer despite what Hamas want and simply annihilating any unauthorised force that moves across that zone. It will demilitarised in only the sense that there will be no Hamas military in the area. Let the full might of the IDF off the chain in that area. They can do that when they don't have their civilians to worry about. As it is right now all they are doing is annexing land that isn't theirs. Anyone defending that insanity needs their head examined.

In the case of the militarised zone, as opposed to moving civilians in and building permanent settlements, that expresses an attitude from Israel that that isn't their land and that they are happy to move out of that area once the hostilities end. Of course that isn't what Israel seems to want. It seems to consider that land to be property of Israel now and forever.

How someone can support that garbage and then be unhappy when other annexures happen (Russia and Ukraine for example) is beyond me. Meh logic goes out the window with many people when religion gets involved (and don't insult my intelligence by claiming religion isn't a big part of this for a lot of people).

I was just about to say it is essentially Muslims vs Jews no?

If both parties were either Jewish or Muslims they'd just make it into one country. Problem solved?

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Because they have no faith in Hamas. Why would anybody. They give a little Hamas moves in and fires more rockets even deeper into Israel then what?

And Hamas has no faith in Israel. Why would they?

 

[porchrat]

I was just about to say it is essentially Muslims vs Jews no?

If both parties were either Jewish or Muslims they'd just make it into one country. Problem solved?

Would make things a lot simpler that is for sure

You are right I think. Seems to me this is at its core an ethno-religious conflict. The supporters are also in most cases seemingly divided along ethno-religious lines too. You're going to find a lot of folks either supporting or denouncing Israel simply because it is Israel. They will perhaps even hold different opinions of similar events that have happened throughout history but suddenly when it comes to Israel all the logic just vanishes in a cloud of ethno-religiously motivated emotion.

 

[Nanfeishen]

but there are a whole bunch of whackjobs out there that unwaveringly support Israel in pretty much anything it chooses to do. It appears to be largely some sort of ethno-religious thing at its base.

(and don't insult my intelligence by claiming religion isn't a big part of this for a lot of people).

You are correct

Its Zionism , plain and simple.

The Future of Palestine (1915) by Herbert Samuel

I am assured that the solution of the problem of Palestine which would be much the most welcome to the leaders and supporters of the Zionist movement throughout the world would be the annexation of the country to the British Empire. I believe that the solution would be cordially welcome also to the greater number of Jews who have not hitherto been interested in the Zionist movement.
..................
It would make a most powerful appeal to the people of the United Kingdom and the Dominions, particularly if it were avowedly a means of aiding the Jews to reoccupy the country. Widespread and deep-rooted in the Protestant world is a sympathy with the idea of restoring the Hebrew people to the land which was to be their inheritance, and intense interest in the fulfilment of the prophecies which have foretold it.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Future_of_Palestine

Christian Zionism is a belief among some Christians that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land, and the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, is in accordance with Biblical prophecy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

So even in 1915 it was clear that there was an idea to increase and up drum support for Zionism amongst the Jewish population, while at the same time drumming up support from the Christian community regarding a Jewish State with the "fullfilment of prohecies" clap trap.

 

[falcon786]

Utter nonsense. Makes far more sense to use the military to create a DMZ of sorts like that seen in Korea. That way one keeps the danger away from one's civilians while still demonstrating that one intends to give that land back when the hostilities end.

Moving civilians in not only keeps civilians at risk, simply now in a new location but also further demonstrates Israel's commitment to annexing the land permanently.

Then again Alan I'm not surprised you support Israel's actions as justified. Seems to me that both sides are at fault here but there are a whole bunch of whackjobs out there that unwaveringly support Israel in pretty much anything it chooses to do. It appears to be largely some sort of ethno-religious thing at its base.

+1 In the end what it boils down to is a religious issue in the eyes of most,unfortunately many Jews are so blinded by the idea of their own state after suffering at the hands of people like the Nazi's that they have allowed the Zionists to take over their religion,there are many Anti-Zionist Jews especially orthodox Jews who speak out openly against Israel and its tactics,they speak of how the Jews and Muslims lived in peace in the area with no bloodshed.

Honestly I get why the Jews want their own state so badly,they have suffered terribly at the hands of Hitler etc but at the same time you would imagine that when a defenceless people has suffered so much at the hands of a military might then they would rise to never do the same to another defenceless people.I hear the Jewish cries about the holocaust and it was terrible what happened in that time,no people deserved to be oppressed like that.Why is it now that many Jews still support Israel and cant see through it that Israel is not Judaism,it is at its core a power hungry Zionist agenda,nothing more.

Ask any Muslim here if Saudi Arabia is Islam and he will gladly tell you no...Islam doesn't need a state to exist,neither does Judaism.Saudi and many other Arab countries are run by despots that claim to be Islam but they are not,Judaism faces the same issue in Israel but unfortunately most Jews don't realize this and how Zionism has hijacked their religion.

Jews world wide need to realise that an attack on Israel is not an attack on Judaism,its an attack on Zionism and the oppression it brings on the Palestinian people be they Muslim,Christian or any other religion.

 

[Nanfeishen]

........................................
Jews world wide need to realise that an attack on Israel is not an attack on Judaism,its an attack on Zionism and the oppression it brings on the Palestinian people be they Muslim,Christian or any other religion.

Nice post, but i think instead of Jews world wide, it should be "People world wide"

 

[Crowley]

This thread (and every thread about Isreal/Hamas)



But keep going, it passes the time.

 

[falcon786]

Nice post, but i think instead of Jews world wide, it should be "People world wide"

I get what you are saying but if the Jews themselves denounce Zionism then everything will fall into place,there may even be a place for a 2 state solution as normal Jews would not be so oppressive towards non Jews and I could honestly imagine them living side by side in peace.A non Zionist Israel would be accepted by most Arab states also IMO.

 

[marine1]

Jews world wide need to realise that an attack on Israel is not an attack on Judaism,its an attack on Zionism and the oppression it brings on the Palestinian people be they Muslim,Christian or any other religion.

Keep telling yourself that.
What will happen to the few million Jews in the world once Israel is gone?
Sorry they have been down this road before and IT WILL not happen again.
This is not about land this s about religion and a nation of people, the Jews.
This BS about land is so old now, its blind hatred.
What would happen if Jews yes Jews were kicked out and the Arabs had control? You think it will stop there? Delusional

 

[falcon786]

Keep telling yourself that.
What will happen to the few million Jews in the world once Israel is gone?
Sorry they have been down this road before and IT WILL not happen again.
This is not about land this s about religion and a nation of people, the Jews.
This BS about land is so old now, its blind hatred.
What would happen if Jews yes Jews were kicked out and the Arabs had control? You think it will stop there? Delusional

The Arabs were not slaughtering Jews in Palestine left right and centre,you seem to have them confused with the Nazi's.Jews were living peacefully in Palestine long before any of the world wars.

Its almost as if you are holding the Palestinians responsible for the crimes of the Nazi's?