Breaking news - firearm act

[marine1]

I really don't want to have to repeat myself again, but Mr Wookie, you again make some serious mistakes and erroneous claims in your long winded proof-of-nothings.

You keep acting as though the ANC is subservient to the NPA. In fact, the NPA works for the ruling party, upholding the laws that the ANC drafts. Why do you keep acting like the NPA has any power at all?

Once again...just because you say something, does not make it true. You have repeated that the NPA believes that licences are valid for life. This is the crux of your argument, and is the most flawed thing of all. The NPA believes the laws that were drafted were properly done and valid. They are only too keen to prosecute contraventions of that law. Your only basis for your belief was one insignificant person in the NPA, and he doesn't have those firearms of his own, currently un(re)licenced!

There would never have been amnesties. Get that through your head. The law is clear, prosecutions were duty bound to proceed, and there were promises of no amnesty.
Now maybe there will be one. Hopefully. Thanks for the SA Jagter and other associations.

You also skip the whole issue of who paid for this new law (overseas) and who was promised a huge reduction in guns in SA, and how the World Cup decision was based on disarmament protocols. UN money paid for the new PC systems in Pta too.

The high court already ruled a long time ago that the law was constitutional and the entire law was legal. Therfore no backing down, and arrests/prosecutions are already approved. Luckily this ruling is based on their inability to cope with the huge amount of applications in time, and not the whole law.

As it is, the best we can hope for is an extension. Nothing more.

G26

That would be correct, I am a gun collector and have knowledge from the Association I belong to and this would be correct IMO
The NPA work for the GVT and do the work of the gvt, run by the ANC

 

[Sackboy]

@ SackBoy I planned on meeting you in a dark ally way less than 10 meters and firing 12 rounds into you.

This one has double the spout lenth and actually pretty good at 20 meters.
Well I was pretty good at 20 meters on the rage - different story under attack & panic I guess.

OK, you're on. Tell me, to make it hit my chest, would you have to aim at my head?

 

[Glock26]

Years ago, a lady dropped her handbag on the counter of the chain store where I worked. Her Browning 6.35 discharged, hitting the cashier in the lower back. An hour later, the news came back that she had passed away. Bad day, and proof that even the humble little .25 can be lethal. This bullet penetrated and bounced around inside until it hit something vital.

Anyways..the point is: you carry the biggest caliber you feel comfortable with...know your firearm...buy the best quality you can afford...and ALWAYS know where the muzzle is pointed. I think joking about shooting each other is a bit over the line folks.

I'm hoping to have more clarification on this whole situation on Monday, but I think even Monday's "Bothma" directive will make it clear even they have no clue.

We will only know for sure after the court decides. I have a feeling they are going to make a quick (and against us) ruling very soon.

As an aside, the local DFO said from Friday she is taking renewals again, even though the period is over. She has no idea what to do, and perhaps someone hinted that she can do that. Good news for those who didn't. See if your local DFO will accept relicencing applications? Wish I hadn't cancelled those 17 of mine...at least I got in 23 applications.

G26

 

[plazma]

Holy cow, 23 - is that a typo?

I once saw a bumper sticker in Jhb that said:
"To gun-free South Africa - suck my Glock".
I still think it's damn funny.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes ... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson.

 

[bwana]

Holy cow, 23 - is that a typo?

I once saw a bumper sticker in Jhb that said:
"To gun-free South Africa - suck my Glock".
I still think it's damn funny.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes ... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson.

He was quoting Cesare Beccaria

 

[plazma]

So he was, and thank you for introducing me to Mr. Cesare. I shall become acquainted with him.
How the hell did you know that?

 

[Glock26]

Holy cow, 23 - is that a typo?

I once saw a bumper sticker in Jhb that said:
"To gun-free South Africa - suck my Glock".
I still think it's damn funny.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes ... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson.

No..that's no typo
CFR said all the renewals are approved too...back in October! But they are still at province and haven't been printed yet
I still have about 20 or so that I need to put new applications in on too.

Oh..and "Gun Free SA..suck my Glock" was started by me and 2 friends when we were still the Glock agents many many years ago. We had the bumper stickers printed.

G26

 

[Ou grote]

Wow, are there still hundreds of thousands owners who have not applied for renewals? That's a huge number to process in short time.

Wow, there are hundreds of thousands of gun owners

That's a lot of guns

 

[captainwifi]

I'm hoping to have more clarification on this whole situation on Monday....

The courts clarify things not the ANC police and the court has ruled that all licenses are valid until the const. rules on the issue. That is the only clarity you need.

If the court rules against us , as they probably will due to our brilliant Hunters association prosecuting themselves then they will issue a directive that a final cut-off date must be given to relicense.
Worst case what to do
1) You ignore that and wait till the very last day.
2) The NPA says nothing, meaning they won't prosecute because the const. court can't order John Welch to prosecute himself if he isn't going to relicense or dispose of his guns.
3) Last day arrives ANC gazettes 24hours before deadline and extension of such a deadline for 3 months, because it takes about 24hours for a gazette notice to take effect. It is important that you understand this that the government gazette is what matters and since John Welch won't prosecute himself no matter what the const. court rules the ANC will growl, bark and blow hot air but when push comes to shove and that PAC shopping mall bomber who has his knife in for the remaining TLU farmers in Tzaneen that he wants nail....... the ANC will relent at the very last momemnt: 24 hours before the cut-off date BECAUSE IT TAKES 24HOURS FOR THE GAZETTE TO TAKE EFFECT.

4) This admin weakness is our saving grace, if the ANC had not yet gazetted an amendment 24hours before say 30 June, then come 30June the law would enable our ANC police force to go and get the last remaining farmers they so desparatly want to nail. But the ANC SAPS can arrest all the farmers tomorrow for alien species on their farm such as Lantana which carries a 3-year prison term but will never do this because John Welch isn't going to prosecute them.

5) Then after 3months the whole cycle will repeat itself for the next 100 years. Bothma yelps and growls, huffs and puffs and then 24hours before cut-off date extends via gazette notice.

 

[Glock26]

2) The NPA says nothing, meaning they won't prosecute because the const. court can't order John Welch to prosecute himself if he isn't going to relicense or dispose of his guns.

Since most of your argument centers around this fact that Mr Welch has not relicenced or disposed of his guns....I strongly suggest you check those facts

G26

 

[captainwifi]

Since most of your argument centers around this fact that Mr Welch has not relicenced or disposed of his guns....I strongly suggest you check those facts

It is very simple, if he had indeed relicensed or turned in his guns he would have said so by now! The ANC created the illusion that come tuesday the NPA is going jump out from behind a rock like growling wolfman hunting down all those TLU farmers who told the anc to go to hell.

The NPA isn't like the ANC in the business of settling scores , being vindictive ,using the law for double purposes such as confiscating farms, driving the whites out of the country no. IF they had any intention to prosecute Tuesday they would have said so by now in order to avoid prosecuting the people!

Don't you get it, like all normal people that prosecutor wants to have a braai on Saturday, not work flat out for next 5years prosecuting people, it would be mayhem. The NPA doesn't have the resources to prosecute 900 000 people, the courts don't have the resources to judge all these cases, the jails don't have the space to put all these people. If we all stand together refusing to piss over ourselves like the cowards who relicensed even the const. court will rule in our favour realizing the admin mayhem it will create, to rule otherwise.

There are practicle constraints to everything. SA isnt' North - Korea, we will not tolerate mass coercion by the state with violance and intimidation. What we had the last 5 years wasn't intimidation but hot - air that scared everybody because the legal profession don't want to understand what the law says about the NPA, neither does Icasa nor Vodacom. They must create the illusion that the FCA and the ECA being legislation automatically means criminal convictions to terrorize you via fear, obfuscation and confusion to you just don't stop their money making rackets by building your own networks.

South Africa doesn't have the capacity to prosecute half their tax payers.

 

[Glock26]

And once again you are missing the whole point.
This law is about disarming the public...I thinkswe all agree on that.
They don't HAVE TO prosecute 400K people. They just have to charge them, agree to a hefty fine, make as though they are lucky to stay out of jail, declare them unfit to posess a firearm for evermore, and release them. Mission successful.

And that is what will happen. They just want to make sure those people can't own guns later. Combined with the fact that licences expire every 5/10 years depending on category, and that maybe only half will renew next time....each year a significant amount of people own less guns, until no-one has any. I wonder if the initial people who applied 5 years ago, and have the category of licence that is only valid for 5 years are aware that they are already due for renewal, and have to apply 60 days before expiry?

That's the aim..that's the method.

G26

 

[Palimino]

OK, you're on. Tell me, to make it hit my chest, would you have to aim at my head?

I think there might be legal implications if you shot someone from so far away. You are not under immediate threat. At the kind of ranges where you may be called-upon to shoot someone in self defence, a large calibre weapon is redundant. A .22 is sufficient. A revolver is the best. Simple, small and force selectable. If you want to tear bloody gobbits of flesh, you can do that.

By cutting the head in a ‘wedge’ shape, it ‘scoops’ the air after leaving the barrel (simple aerodynamics). It begins to tumble because of the unbalanced forces. A tumbling .22 will tear a bigger hole than a .45 and cause more damage. This is not a competition for slug weight. A human is a soft target. The .45 will trump the tumbling .22 if you are measuring penetration in a tree trunk. I’m not claiming gnat’s eye accuracy either. Shoot a .22 regular round grouping at 25 metres. Shoot a grouping with .22 tumblers. You will be about 8 cm off your original group (note the hole you tear in the target as well - not a neat .22 size hole). Eight centimetres off at 25 metres? In a revolver? Acceptable (if you plan to load tumblers). Small enough to carry all the time (in a pocket?). Condoms over the muzzle, impervious to sperm & lint but that can be fired through, will protect the barrel from pocket debris?

Don’t go for a kill. Your assailant will die anyway (infection, inadequate medical attention) and it makes it easier for people to shoot (women & children) if they know they are not killing someone (hesitation can be fatal). As well, not killing is a way of avoiding attention. Cluttering the landscape with corpses attracts attention and official grief.

A revolver is preferable because it is (mechanically) simple, can’t jam and allows a selection of force options (if you have the time). Snake shot, regular rounds and tumblers. Snakeshot rounds are (were) commonly available, a sort of .22 shotgun shell, – it’s the minimum force option (if you choose to use minimum force). They don’t ‘alternate’ with solids, the revolver is loaded according to the perceived level of threat. A low-crime area (if that exists) may have the entire load as snakeshot rounds – just painful discouragement rather than permanent disablement. You only ‘fiddle’ if you have the opportunity, otherwise you blast the bad guy with whatever’s under the hammer. It would be unwise for the entire load to be "flesh tearing tumbling rounds.

Incidentally, I am not possessive about this ‘advice’. If it’s not followed, I don’t care. I don’t have any agenda to push. It’s offered simply as an alternative. Personally, I don’t want to get involved in red tape (I lose control of my life) but want to remain a credible threat to the bad guy. My post is directed to this end. Others may think differently.

 

[Sackboy]

I think an even bigger point is that even if some of us are re-licensed (just got mine), the circumstances in which we can use the weapon have become restricted. At the moment, you would have to be in imminent danger, so the crim can just turn and run. You get into trouble for pointing it, for discharging it in a public place, can't fire warning shots, and if you do hit someone, the police will confiscate it and open a case against you. As g26 says, the intention appears to be to disarm civilians.

 

[Ivork]

Well you are right.

But it is still better I (and my family) are still alive, even if I have to spend a few years in jail for killing the bastard crook that had no right been inside my house in the middle of the night in the first place.

Criminals have way more rights than the normal law abiding citzen in this country of course.

But still a right I should have and be allowed to decide on.

 

[plazma]

It seems over-the-top to kill someone who is burgling your house, dude. Or breaking into your car. You have to draw a line somewhere.
Or maybe we should be able to kill people with our guns because they looked at us funny, huh?

Are you really, really willing to spend a few years in a jail for shooting someone who burgled your house? Have you actually seen what a modern South African prison is like inside? Do you even know what they eat in there?

Are you also willing to become some thug's bitch for a few years? Are you willing to get AIDS? Do you like the smell of Vaseline?

Think.

 

[bwana]

It seems over-the-top to kill someone who is burgling your house, dude. Or breaking into your car. You have to draw a line somewhere.
Or maybe we should be able to kill people with our guns because they looked at us funny, huh?

Are you really, really willing to spend a few years in a jail for shooting someone who burgled your house? Have you actually seen what a modern South African prison is like inside? Do you even know what they eat in there?

Are you also willing to become some thug's bitch for a few years? Are you willing to get AIDS? Do you like the smell of Vaseline?

Think.

Who mentioned burglary? And why would you assume they have no other intent? I dont think I'd be willing to make that assumption with my life and the lives of my wife and children in the balance.

 

[coolio24]

Wow, there are hundreds of thousands of gun owners

That's a lot of guns

FYI - there were around 1.6 million licenced gunowners on the database, registered under the 1969 Act. about 600 thousand have applied for licence conversions/renewals, about a million did not apply yet

The Judge granted the interdict, as Gvt does not have the cpacity to process all the applications, and can't allow a million people to be criminalised if the deadline was allowed.

 

[Mila]

And they waited until the last moment to tell us this.
I also did not know that you could have renewed the licence up until tomorrow.
I asked it here at the police station and at the gun shop. And the answers was you are going to be locked up.

The question i have is:
Are they ever going to clean up this mess?
My answer is:

What problem has been cleaned up.

One more FAIL for the government.

 

[Koos Custodiet]

Should I lay a charge of theft against SAP ?

Theft under false pretences.

If they destroy it, malicious damage to property

You did claim compensation when you handed the gun in, didn't you? That court case coming up later this year.

It is very simple, if he had indeed relicensed or turned in his guns he would have said so by now!

Ooh! Brilliant argument! You win!