Death Penalty

The death penalty can work very effectively in a first world country, however having such a system in place under the corrupt ANC government is just scary, I would hate to see the results...

Bringing back the death penalty to SA will not work, especially if the justice system is not working.

A typical example, just look at who get charged for traffic fines in SA. The taxis that break the law? Politicians are not being charged for their crimes and are getting off scot free, what about that thing called a presidential pardon, they will have to scrap that too..

I personally would hate to be living in SA with the death penalty in place, living under the corrupt government that just does what it pleases.
 
. Protections in law are there to protect individuals from the state.
And now we have the complete opposite where an individual is protected, or not, and thousands die a year because of the free reign of criminals and murderers.
 
They can manage quite a few murders while they're out on bail, in the years before they get executed. Maybe they'll even get released early. If someone who should be in jail for life can be released, then why not someone who should be executed?

Someone securely locked in prison for life is also prevented from killing anyone. Deterrent value is whether it discourages anyone else.


Maybe you didn't read the previous post?

Those who are in favour of the death penalty and happy with an 'acceptable' number of erroneous executions put their head on the block for their convictions. State kills innocent person, a few of those in acceptable losses camp hand over their heads and their possessions. Takes care of the apology for the mistake.

All we need is a list of names - "I believe it is acceptable for the state to execute some innocent people and I agree that if this should occur I may be picked to be executed myself, as an apology and recognition of my implicit involvement in the wrongful death, and my possessions given as compensation to the family of the person wrongfully convicted. I agree that I have no recourse and may not object if I am selected."

Let's have a referundum, let people vote, but to vote yes you have to put your name on the list and sign the agreement.

What a joke?
 
No it won't.

Read the statistics earlier in the thread - it may even go up.

You call that statistics, hardly convinced me me at all, its written by some group to abolish the death penalty. It is not compared with any other variables. Typical protest group hogwash. Its like asking the ANC if they are against apartheid. Proof would be if they implement the death penalty in a state or country where none or only a few murders takes place in a period and then by introducing the capital punishment law the figures increase while all else remained constant. This north/south theory is a farce. Consideration of contributing circumstances, increase of population, and crime, all, should be scientifically analyzed to be sure the change is not just a normal progression due to increase for other reasons like increase in population over years and like higher availability of guns. poverty. etc.
 
No they're balanced. In reality the state remains favoured, except in cases of wealthy individuals who can afford the best defense.
An 8% conviction rate proves otherwise. Enough with your assumptions, provide facts or ****.
My impression of the accused in the Lotz case was that he had access to money. What if he had been dirt poor and saddled with an overworked, poorly experienced state-provided lawyer?
You can't possibly be serious??? There was tampering with evidence in that case - making it inadmissible, which in turn broke the case down. If anything, this proves that investigation is the source of the problem, not the legal system.

So, indirectly you're saying that JZ got off on rape charges because he had expensive lawyers? :rolleyes:
 
Typical protest group hogwash.

This north/south theory is a farce.

I doubt very much that Janet Reno is a lentil-eating bunny hugging activist.

However, I provided stats to the forum to support my viewpoint - if you wish to provide stats to the contrary that is what debating is for.

Simply stating it is a farce is an opinion, and an unsupported one.

For those who weren't part of yesterdays bunfight this is quote which I think is well worth bearing in mind when discussing emotional topics:

What's the difference? Put simply, debate is a contest of ideas, while argument is a contest of yelling volume. Debate is conducted with decorum and mutual respect, while argument relies on name-calling and personal attack. Debate is based on appeals to logic, while argument is based on appeals to base emotion, particularly fear, aggression, and an "us vs. Them" mentality often based in xenophobia and bigotry.

Finally, debate and argument have different goals. Debate seeks to inform those who disagree with you, to persuade them of your views through a chain of logical reasoning. The ultimate result of debate is almost invariably both better policy and more knowledgeable debaters. Argument, on the other hand, seeks to vilify those who disagree with you, either to somehow 'punish' them or gain points with some third party. Almost inevitably, argument results in mutual bitterness and little positive result. Tell me, which sounds more effective at changing people's minds? After all, wasn't that the point in the first place?
 
I doubt very much that Janet Reno is a lentil-eating bunny hugging activist.

However, I provided stats to the forum to support my viewpoint - if you wish to provide stats to the contrary that is what debating is for.

Simply stating it is a farce is an opinion, and an unsupported one.

For those who weren't part of yesterdays bunfight this is quote which I think is well worth bearing in mind when discussing emotional topics:

That is not stats. It shows an increase of murders over many years. A graph with no real variables taken in account. The rest of the "references" claims that one area without capital punishment have less murders than another with capital laws in place without any facts to support like, poverty, guns volume etc. As stated hardly any believable evidence and I think you grabbed the first document you could find to support the claims made. There is other documents on the net to the contrary but this will then just degenerate in a I post links, you post links as we saw so many times in the past. Bring some independent research, stats or article and we may review the issue. They claim "research shows" and then just conveniently hop over the research details and results and give you a bunch of opinions graphs and tables.

Unless you have better to offer my original viewpoint stand. Bring back hanging (In public). I would love to see the b@stard kick and breathen his last bit of air out of his body like he did to the victims when he committed the crime.
 
Ok, heres an independent report by the Maryland State Commission on Criminal Sentencing Policy.

Extracts provided but feel free to read the entire report.

http://www.msccsp.org/publications/death.html


Death Penalty and Deterrence
Much of the current recent research suggests that the death penalty does not have a significant deterrent effect. One study by Sorenson and Wrinkle (1999) in Texas speculated that, if a deterrent effect did exist, it would be found in Texas because of the extreme numbers of death sentences and executions within the state. They not only found that there was no deterrent effect but that number of executions was unrelated to murder rates and felony rates as well. Another study by William Bailey (1998) in Oklahoma also found no deterrent effect; however, he did find that there was a significant increase in stranger killings and non-felony killings after Oklahoma resumed executions.
Moreover, Bailey conducted studies of several states, including Ohio, Oregon, North Carolina, and California and found no deterrent effect (Bailey, 1978, 1979, 1979, 1979). A study by Decker and Kohfeld (1990) used a 50-year time series from 1930-1980 to assess the effect of executions on murder rates in North Carolina, California, Texas, New York, and Georgia. Essentially, they found no deterrent effect in their analysis.

Most recently, according to a survey by the New York Times, states without the death penalty have lower homicides rates than states with the death penalty. Comparisons show that the average murder rate per 10,000 population in 1999 was 5.5 among death penalty states versus 3.6 among non-death penalty states (DPIC, 2001).

In California, instead of finding support evidence of a deterrent effect, Robert Harris found support for the brutalization effect (Harris, 1999). The brutalization effect suggests that executions increase crime rather than act as a deterrent. Harris found slight increases in homicides during the eight months following the execution. Another study, entitled The Capital Punishment Quagmire in America, examined differences in homicides and violent crime in 293 pairs of counties. They found no deterrent effect and higher violent crime rates in death penalty counties (Harries & Cheatwood, 1997).

A study by Radelet and Akers (1996) surveyed America's criminologists and discovered that most (87.5%) believe that the death penalty does, and can do, very little to reduce rates of criminal violence. In addition, they cited a survey by Peter D. Hart Associates, which found little support (26%) for the deterrence argument out of a random sample of police chiefs and county sheriffs throughout the Unites States.

An earlier study by Issac Ehrlich (1975) has played an important role in the public debate on the death penalty. Before this, most of the work on death penalty and deterrence was conducted by Thomas Sellin. In one particular study, Sellin examined groups of contiguous states, each group containing one state with capital punsishment ("retentionist") and one state without ("abolitionist"). His conclusion was that executions have no discernible effect on homicide death rates (McGahey, 1996). However, using an econometric technique to examine murder and execution rates in the U.S. from 1933-1969, Ehrlich found that capital punishment did in fact have a deterrent effect. He concluded that for each execution there was a deterrence of 7 to 8 murders (McGahey, 1996). This study received immediately criticisms from other criminologists. Passell and Taylor replicated the study and found when the period from 1963-1969 was excluded, the deterrent effect was statistically insignificant (McGahey, 1996). Bowers and Pierce found similar results and also questioned Erhlich's use of FBI rather than Vital Statistics data (McGahey, 1996). In 1985, Layson repeated Erhlich's study, making several improvements, including the use of Vital Statistics data, and confirmed findings of a deterrent effect (Layson, 1985). Finally, work by Brian Forst (1983) suggests that on balance the death penalty does not have a perceptible influence on the homicide rate.

Over to you for your evidence in support of.
 
But they'll still have many years to do this before they are executed. If someone who should be jailed for life can be released early, then someone who should be executed can be released. The death penalty isn't going to change this. It has arguable deterrent value if criminals know they'll get caught, convicted and executed. That situation does not exist in South Africa.

I'm not opposed to killing the most violent criminals, but first we have a lot of work to do on the system. Any calls for re-instating the death penalty are premature.

You don't have to care about the fate of genuine violent criminals to have concerns about the state using its vast resources to kill people. The average individual cannot afford the kind of expert defense they'd need, particularly if they were not guilty. The state can spend whatever it takes to get that individual killed. Protections in law are there to protect [-]individuals from the state[/-] the public.

I agree with most of this but it needed one correction.
 
All we need is a list of names - "I believe it is acceptable for the state to execute some innocent people and I agree that if this should occur I may be picked to be executed myself, as an apology and recognition of my implicit involvement in the wrongful death, and my possessions given as compensation to the family of the person wrongfully convicted. I agree that I have no recourse and may not object if I am selected."

Let's have a referundum, let people vote, but to vote yes you have to put your name on the list and sign the agreement.

I hope you are being sarcastic!

So by your logic, if I support the death penalty, I might be killed myself if the state retrospectively makes a mistake?

"Daddy, where you going?"
"To be killed for someone else's mistake sweety"
"But why?"
"Because Noxibox says so!"
 
I am not a Roman Catholic, and regardless of whence it comes this is a position which to me seems unarguable...

As stated in John Paul II's encyclical Evangelium Vitae, the Roman Catholic Church holds that capital punishment should be avoided unless it is the only way to defend society from the offender in question, and that with today's penal system such a situation requiring an execution is either rare or non-existent.

Otherwise let's go back to the wild west where the whole family came out to watch a hanging, or the French revolution and knit while the heads roll.

We are quick to say some middle eastern countries are barbaric to chop off the hand of a thief - but its fine to chop off the head of a murderer.

To those who use recently translated scripture to support the death penalty -

Romans 12:19-21

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
 
If we all lived by any scriptures the world would be a semi perfect places because most scriptures want a utopian society where everyone loves everyone.

Will Never happen.
 
I believe in the Death Penalty.

A family member of mine was shot while foiling an armed robbery. He managed to take out one, wound two others and still maintain a gun over the other two after being shot repeatedly in the back by the one he had killed first until backup arrived.

The whole point to this story is this:
He was out of hospital by the time the trial rolled around for the robbers and the worst is that they and their families were crying the same old song of " my poor son , he supports our family , don't punish my husband/father/son , what about his kids" . All this sh**, people committed violent crimes and they must face the consequences of their actions. I nearly lost a family member , someone nearly lost a son and someone a father, for the sole sake of that person giving a damn about other people in this country.

Hang those that need it and hard labor for the rest.
 
before Death Penalty is going to work effectively we need 0% crime tolerance with educated police who can file a docket properly as well as the courts needs to revamped so proper prosecution can follow. Good salary for the crime fighters and real benefits would help too.

the Death Penalty is one part, but with out really good justice system it means squat.
 
We are quick to say some middle eastern countries are barbaric to chop off the hand of a thief - but its fine to chop off the head of a murderer.-

Now you called this example. I agree with that extreme Islam principle when needed like here in South Africa. What is the crime rate in those countries. By your flawed logic crime must be on the increase then, not? Thus by now half the population should have No right hands. I checked but cannot find any proof of amputees to such an extend .
 
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Now there's a constructive idea.

On what charge ?

Obviously the charge would be opposing the death penalty.
(It was supposed to be a joke)
but at least you would then have consensus.:D
 
Now you called this example. I agree with that extreme Islam principle when needed like here in South Africa. What is the crime rate in those countries. By your flawed logic crime must be on the increase then, not? Thus by now half the population should have No right hands. I checked but cannot find any proof of amputees to such an extend .

Say what? Not sure how you came to these conclusions from his post!? None of what you claim is even insinuated in daveza's post.
 
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