Depression.

[pampoenskyf]

People should not equate the word "depression" with "sadness" and feeling "sorry for oneself"

In fact I would urge people like Velenoso to speak to an ACTUAL depression sufferer to get the real story. And even after such a discussion you would still not be close to getting it.

 

[HapticSimian]

I didn't dismiss anybody's anguish.

Your opening gambit in this discussion:

+1

I don't understand this depression nonsense.
...

Seems pretty dismissive to me. Ever heard of an argument from incredulity? That's some of the same 'logic' fundamentalist religious folk use to dismiss evolution. It's weak.

I'm sure the anguish is real. I'm just not so sure that it's a disease. I believe it's a state of mind and have not yet been convinced otherwise.

Your beliefs have precious little to do with reality, I'm afraid. Here are a few entries in various medical databases on clinical depression; the WHO recognises depression as a disease; so does the USA's National Institute of Health, but hey, that's all trumped by your beliefs, right?

A lot of the guys in this thread are getting angry with some of our opinions instead of having a mature debate about it.

Is your definition of a 'mature debate', perhaps, that everyone should just merrily agree with your demonstrably incorrect opinion?

The remainder of your post wasn't directed at me, but...

Specialists do agree that depressed people are ill - But they have not concluded what causes depression or how to treat it.

...could you perhaps make up your mind? Is depression an illness (as agreed upon by specialists, according to you) or isn't it (as opined, confusingly, also by you)?

You should perhaps update your beliefs to include more relevant data than some opinion piece in a magazine from 2008.

 

[Velenoso]

I'm honestly not trying to attack you by bringing this up. I recall reading it in the honesty thread a while back and and it has me wondering if alcohol is your drug of choice. Many people use alcohol as a way to overcome the stress and depression in their lives.

You're absolutely correct. I'm a very stressed guy I run several companies. Alcohol is an outlet for me (I am trying to change this, took up running, etc). But it's certainly not because I'm depressed, I'm usually a very happy and cheerful guy. (Have my days, but who doesn't?)

 

[killadoob]

People should not equate the word "depression" with "sadness" and feeling "sorry for oneself"

In fact I would urge people like Velenoso to speak to an ACTUAL depression sufferer to get the real story. And even after such a discussion you would still not be close to getting it.

An actual one, what does that mean? What is an actual depressed person?

Depression is not an illness or disease, it is a state of mind. I know it is a state of mind because i was badly depressed but purely because everything was seen bad and nothing was seen as good.

Self esteem works the same the way, look in the mirror and see an ugly person and that is what you will always see and you feel terrible, look in the mirror and see a unique person that could be a model and you will have good self esteem.

I wonder is low self esteem a disease? Is low confidence a disease?

 

[Velenoso]

Apologies for the double post, I didn't see your reply initially.

Your opening gambit in this discussion:

Seems pretty dismissive to me. Ever heard of an argument from incredulity? That's some of the same 'logic' fundamentalist religious folk use to dismiss evolution. It's weak.

This is an unfounded argument, I have read on the subject and as I indicated in a previous post I have dealt with it directly with my fiancee. I don't know how much experience I need before anything I say can be considered valid by the high and mighty depressed.

Here[/URL] are a few entries in various medical databases on clinical depression; the WHO recognises depression as a disease; so does the USA's National Institute of Health, but hey, that's all trumped by your beliefs, right?

No, I can also search for a bunch of links that supports my view. They are not just my beliefs, many doctors, specialists as well as lay men (most of us here on this forum) and some in this thread agree.

No it isn't. I'd like a debate without personal insults etc because guys are getting angry that we do not see depression as a disease. How 'bout that? This would be a good opportunity to prove to some of us that it is a real disease, but since people get angry all they achieve is making themselves feel (a little) better by venting.


I said ILL, not a DISEASE. A hangover makes you feel ill, but you sort it out by sleeping it off, eating, having a bloody mary whatever. Something that makes you ill is not necessarily a disease that needs long term treatment.

 

[Velenoso]

People should not equate the word "depression" with "sadness" and feeling "sorry for oneself"

In fact I would urge people like Velenoso to speak to an ACTUAL depression sufferer to get the real story. And even after such a discussion you would still not be close to getting it.

So my fiancee was not depressed? Does slitting your wrists and sitting around moping all day not count as depression? In that case maybe I'm confusing this with something else, because this is now not making much sense to me.

This is just serving to confirm to me that this is not a disease, its a person who WANTS to be depressed. Like killadoob says, unwilling to look at the world in a positive light. It's not all doom and gloom. Life has a lot to offer, it's not all dark and gloomy!

 

[killadoob]

So my fiancee was not depressed? Does slitting your wrists and sitting around moping all day not count as depression? In that case maybe I'm confusing this with something else, because this is now not making much sense to me.

This is just serving to confirm to me that this is not a disease, its a person who WANTS to be depressed. Like killadoob says, unwilling to look at the world in a positive light. It's not all doom and gloom. Life has a lot to offer, it's not all dark and gloomy!

I would love to see them replace depression with negative outlook syndrome haha or something like that . You have NOS

 

[HapticSimian]

This is an unfounded argument, I have read on the subject and as I indicated in a previous post I have dealt with it directly with my fiancee. I don't know how much experience I need before anything I say can be considered valid by the high and mighty depressed.

One encounter does not an expert make. Hit me up once you've conducted a few lifetimes' worth of the type of clinical research that organisations like the WHO and NIH base their position on.

No, I can also search for a bunch of links that supports my view. They are not just my beliefs, many doctors, specialists as well as lay men (most of us here on this forum) and some in this thread agree.

Sure you can, but I sincerely doubt your 'bunch of links' will rival mine in terms of authority on the subject. When you are not qualified to pass judgement on something - anything - the logical thing to do is to defer to the relevant experts. Not 'many', the majority... and certainly not the opinion of 'lay men'. The experts don't agree with you.

No it isn't. I'd like a debate without personal insults etc because guys are getting angry that we do not see depression as a disease. How 'bout that? This would be a good opportunity to prove to some of us that it is a real disease, but since people get angry all they achieve is making themselves feel (a little) better by venting.

I don't see that there's a debate to be had.

I said ILL, not a DISEASE. A hangover makes you feel ill, but you sort it out by sleeping it off, eating, having a bloody mary whatever. Something that makes you ill is not necessarily a disease that needs long term treatment.

Hey, you've already dismissed the world's leading health organisations' stance on depression. Why not redefine the English language while you're at it?

*edit*

This... this last bit? That's the crux. There's a difference between feeling ill as in having a hangover, and being ill, as in suffering from a medically recognised condition. I terms of depression I'd hazard you've not had any dealings with the latter.

 

[killadoob]

Haptic, tell me what is the first thing that happens when you are diagnosed with depression?

 

[HapticSimian]

Haptic, tell me what is the first thing that happens when you are diagnosed with depression?

To what end?

 

[D3nz]

So my fiancee was not depressed? Does slitting your wrists and sitting around moping all day not count as depression? In that case maybe I'm confusing this with something else, because this is now not making much sense to me.

From Wikipedia

Suicide is often committed out of despair, the cause of which can be attributed to a mental disorder such as depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, alcoholism, or drug abuse.[1] Stress factors such as financial difficulties or troubles with interpersonal relationships often play a significant role

Many reasons why a person might try to commit suicide. Saying a person who is depressed sits around and mopes all day clearly tells me you have no understanding of clinical depression.

 

[Bundu]

I see there are many 'experts' on this thread, especially the 'tough guys'.... who base their expertise on one incident where they encountered somebody that just needed love and attention

In my life so far, two people, fairly close to me, both of above average intelligence and neither of the attention seeking type, went and killed themselves - a pretty final thing to do - there was no tantrum throwing period or visible despair before they did the deed, so definitely no attention seeking .... I was surprised and obviously saddened

In my view, they suffered from a DISEASE called Depression and were never diagnosed with it, so were not treated

I can only hope that the 'experts' don't have children with depression one day, give them the 'be a tough guy' treatment, and find them with their faces blown away or hanging from their bedroom doors - good luck!

 

[killadoob]

To what end?

Answer the question, if you go see a shrink/doctor and they say you have depression what do they do from there?

Bundu i have an answer but i want to know what the first step is when you are diagnosed with depression.

Bundu nobody is questioning people get depressed and can kill themselves, some of us have said we have been through it i will continue when my initial question is answered.

 

[D3nz]

I can only hope that the 'experts' don't have children with depression one day, give them the 'be a tough guy' treatment, and find them with their faces blown away or hanging from their bedroom doors - good luck!

This actually did happen to someone I know. Dad gave the 17 year old boy the "tough guy" treatment and found him hanging in his bedroom one day. Weirdly enough, he still didn't learn anything and tried to convince my husband to stop taking his antidepressants. He kind of reminds me of the "experts" in this thread.

 

[killadoob]

This actually did happen to someone I know. Dad gave the 17 year old boy the "tough guy" treatment and found him hanging in his bedroom one day. Weirdly enough, he still didn't learn anything and tried to convince my husband to stop taking his antidepressants. He kind of reminds me of the "experts" in this thread.

Being tough is not the way to do it though nor does it prove depression is disease, it just means he made the kid hate life even more. All that happened was life seemed even worse than before.

Come on guys answer the question.

When you are diagnosed with depression what is the first thing that happens or the first step?

 

[Bundu]

Answer the question, if you go see a shrink/doctor and they say you have depression what do they do from there?

Bundu i have an answer but i want to know what the first step is when you are diagnosed with depression.

Bundu nobody is questioning people get depressed and can kill themselves, some of us have said we have been through it i will continue when my initial question is answered.

I'm not sure what happens, have no more depressed friends left.... but would assume, that a skilled professional would do specific tests and prescribe appropriate treatment - dunno, I don't have depression

I had another good friend MANY years ago - his life was a cesspool of sh.t, mostly of his own doing - he also drank way too much and I was always expecting a call to be informed that he had ended his life - never happened.... he was killed in a car accident whilst being 100% sober for a change - so my point is, I think very few people kill themselves because of worldly problems, most of us can cope - depression is the ones that can't cope, not because they are 'weak', but because there is an imbalance in their brains

 

[maumau]

I don't understand the problem - if pills make you feel better, take them. I do.

My gp has a degree in treating depression. He says it's the fastest growing "disease/illness" at the moment.

Sorry, not a degree. He pursues studies in depression.

 

[HapticSimian]

Answer the question, if you go see a shrink/doctor and they say you have depression what do they do from there?

You're the expert, you tell me. I'm not about to be led in discussion by you of all people...

 

[D3nz]

Being tough is not the way to do it though nor does it prove depression is disease, it just means he made the kid hate life even more. All that happened was life seemed even worse than before.

Come on guys answer the question.

When you are diagnosed with depression what is the first thing that happens or the first step?

The boy was diagnosed with clinical depression. His father's attitude was "you got nothing to be depressed about, so suck it up"...

You obviously want us to say that the doctor prescribes antidepressants...however we've already said it's up to the individual to do the research and decide if he/she needs it or can overcome their depression without it. IMO if you can't think clearly to do that, it probably means that you need the antidepressants.

 

[killadoob]

You're the expert, you tell me. I'm not about to be led in discussion by you of all people...

So then do me a favour and flip off and stop chatting here if you cannot have a debate without freaking out if people don't agree but i can tell you they tell your doctor what to prescribe or they do it themselves depending on the situation.

So the first thing they do is get you on drugs. They do not offer positivity options at all upfront. They do not try and work on confidence and self esteem first, drugs drugs and more drugs. Then they give you an anti depressant but it causes anxiety so they give you anxiety tablets as well so now you are on two drugs because you are depressed.

It is all about money, that is why i would suggest anyone that depressed or thinks they are should go to a life coach and not shrink or doctor. They work on self esteem confidence and attitude towards life. How is it life coaches are curing depression with no drugs? impossible surely? When i look at the side effects of anti depressants it makes me feel depressed.

Explain to me how there are people curing depression without drugs if it cannot be done without drugs?