Depression.

[copacetic]

I'm late to this thread ... has it been mentioned that regular alcohol use can also make you feel depressed?

Not yet, but you are correct

Did anyone actually read the first post in the damn thread? :wtf:

 

[biometrics]

Did anyone actually read the first post in the damn thread? :wtf:

Just did a minute ago and I see it mentioned there but I think it's worth highlighting.

 

[Humberto]

I'm late to this thread ... has it been mentioned that regular alcohol use can also make you feel depressed?

Alcohol is the single most depressionegic substance there is.

http://alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/content/44/5/437.full:

Individuals with alcohol dependence have a 60–120 times higher suicide risk than the non-psychiatry ill population (Sher, 2006).

Consistent with the data on alcohol dependence, alcohol use at the time of suicide is common. Among all suicide victims, a high proportion (10–54%) have a positive blood alcohol concentration (BAC) at the time of death (Bilban and Skibin, 2005; Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2006). For example, a study performed on a Polish sample revealed that, among suicide attempters, 30% had positive BACs, whereas only 6% were alcohol dependent (Kołaciński et al., 1997).

 

[Singal]

Did anyone actually read the first post in the damn thread? :wtf:

sorry was talking about lately

 

[Nick333]

Look, anyway, I'm letting myself get caught up in a debate I'm not really interested. I don't believe there is any malevolence in the mental health profession. I do believe medication and psycho-analysis can be helpful but I firmly believe that the most important factor in the equation of recovery of mental health is the sufferer them self.
As a long time sufferer myself, I believe in the CBT model of unhelpful emotional responses because of faulty mental models in response to external events being at the root of most mental disorders.
As an example a person who is told as a child that they are incompetent (explicitly or inadvertently e.g. " Don't touch that, you'll break it" or " you're always breaking things" or " let me do that, you'll mess it up") may grow up to believe that every mistake they make is evidence of their incompetence. When they make a mistake it may trigger feelings of self-loathing and shame which lead to depression and anxiety.
This is more or less the model I came up with on my own before ever hearing of CBT.
Poor self-image or a poor image of the world does lead to mental disorders. Our emotional state can and does affect us physiologically. I see no reason to believe that depression and anxiety can affect our brain chemistry adversely over time and that depressives become the victims of a self-perpetuating syndrome - depressive thoughts cause depressive brain chemistry that cause depressive thoughts. Conversely positive thoughts can have the opposite self-perpetuating effects.
Obviously, artificially introducing the right chemicals to counter act the imbalance will have positive effects but they don't treat the underlying causes i.e.the negative thoughts.

That's a perfectly logical model and testable. I have some personal experience as evidence for it.
I think there can be very little harm in sufferers of mental disorders investigating CBT. Having put that out there I feel I've done my duty. Use it don't use it.

 

[Singal]

Wheat, fine white flour........in my case, result in terrible "depression." Happy pills won't cure that!

Strangely enough, this is possible. Excessive refined carbohydrates can have a depressive effect on some people.

 

[Singal]

Many people who suffer from clinical depression, but are undiagnosed, don't understand why they are unhappy. Many of them keep the feelings inside, suffering in silence, while putting on their happy mask. Nobody likes being with people who are always down, so they hide their pain until seeing others happiness hurts even more and they pull away from their friends and family.

These people need to realise they are not alone. They need to be able to talk about their feelings without fear of stigmatism. If the stigmatism associated with mental health is removed, people would not be afraid to seek help and I'm quite confident the suicide rate would decrease.

 

[killadoob]

I've read many studies that demonstrate cognitive improvements in groups using these psychoactive drugs for a variety of conditions. While I'm sure there are cases in which drugs that are not needed or that won't work on that individual are prescribed, that doesn't mean the drugs themselves don't work at all or that this is all some sort of conspiracy by the drug companies to make megaprofits.

Similarly there is plenty we still don't know about the human brain. IMO we still have more to learn about it than we do about any other system in the human body. That still doesn't mean the drugs we use today are not effective or that the serotonin-dopamine model proposed today is incorrect. I would need to see references involving studies of statistical significance to that effect.

As to there being no evidence of the neurochemical imbalances I disagree. Mankind has a general idea of which areas of the brain use which types of neurochemicals for what and brain activity scans are performed on patients and compared with the norm. Dopamine ans serotonin levels can be, and are, measured demonstrating abnormalities. These people don't just put on funny hats and trust to luck as this article implies (with no references supporting those specific claims I might add)

So the people on this forum using drugs, have they under gone all of that stuff to determine what is right for them?

Perhaps signal and copa and explain the process they went through before obtaining their meds, i would be interested to hear some stories from the drugs users, mostly it's a bit of chit chat and then you get your drugs.

I can fully understand if people are diagnosed using the methods you suggest but that simply does not happen, it's like candy. Talk a bit and you get your candy.

Copa and signal tell me the process you guys went through before going onto meds please. Who did you see, what tests were conducted and how long did it take for a diagnosis and then from there how long until you got the candy?

Porch i agree with you but i don't think you understand the process very well and maybe i don't but it's a simple chit chat followed by drugs. Go read up on it. They have no idea if your brain is a problem because majority of people won't have or won't spend the 4k for the brain scan.

Copa, signal your input would be good and anyone else currently using drugs. Did you have a brain scan? did you have certain tests done to verify anything or was it a sit down chit chat and you walked out with a letter/script.

I never said the drugs did not work, i just cannot grasp how they can determine what drug you need so simply and easy in one session with virtually no testing, just a chit chat and bam they know what you need. Some people even go tell the guys what they need because they research it on google haha

Signal how many people die while taking meds? they kill themselves i wonder if it's more or less than people who don't take drugs, it even says on the package, may lead to suicidal thoughts. I will dig a bit later on regarding the suicide rate of anti depressant users vs people seeking other options.

 

[Nick333]

Many people who suffer from clinical depression, but are undiagnosed, don't understand why they are unhappy. Many of them keep the feelings inside, suffering in silence, while putting on their happy mask. Nobody likes being with people who are always down, so they hide their pain until seeing others happiness hurts even more and they pull away from their friends and family.

These people need to realise they are not alone. They need to be able to talk about their feelings without fear of stigmatism. If the stigmatism associated with mental health is removed, people would not be afraid to seek help and I'm quite confident the suicide rate would decrease.

I'm sure you're right actually. I can think of one person who is quite incapable of digging herself out of her depression on her own who refused the advice of getting herself medicated. In retrospect she is so helpless that the only way she could get medicated would be to ask her parents to take her to an out patient hospital. I'm think that request would be met with derision. Of course the source of her depressive thinking is her parents! I'll admit I never considered the depth of the problem she is faced with till just now.

 

[HapticSimian]

I will dig a bit later on regarding the suicide rate of anti depressant users vs people seeking other options.

You can start here...

 

[killadoob]

Busy watching a movie but during my smoke break i found this story and while it is does nothing to prove anything about suicide it does show one example of someone getting medication without any extra help, that is the problem i have with drugs. Is people are given the drugs but that is where it ends.

Signal and copa i am sure will tell us what they are doing something other than taking drugs, While serotonin may help improve our mood if you are not thinking happy it will do little to make you happy.

http://www.sooperarticles.com/healt...de-rates-blame-antidepressant-use-816938.html

Just one story showing that drugs never helped that girl and perhaps she would be alive if the parents and doctors involved told the parents that simply popping a pill does not cure the person. You need to sort out the issues or work on the person but at the moment people just drop a pill without support. signal and copa i am sure are doing something other than dropping meds surely? Only they could tell us.

 

[porchrat]

So the people on this forum using drugs, have they under gone all of that stuff to determine what is right for them?

Perhaps signal and copa and explain the process they went through before obtaining their meds, i would be interested to hear some stories from the drugs users, mostly it's a bit of chit chat and then you get your drugs.

I would certainly hope so. I know those I have had contact with that are taking these sorts of drugs did.

Certainly wasn't just some chit-chat and then hand out the drugs. There were blood tests, urine tests, brain scans. All sorts.

Which of course leads us to the horrible conclusion that the video source article thingy you referenced is flat out lying. There are tests out there that can be performed to determine serotonin and dopamine levels and they are performed. So much for there being no evidence . Also please don't take this as outright rejection, I perhaps don't require as much background reading as you to determine when a source is fibbing on this subject due to the experiences I've had with people suffering from these conditions and possibly my education.

I can fully understand if people are diagnosed using the methods you suggest but that simply does not happen, it's like candy. Talk a bit and you get your candy.

Not in my experience. The follow ups afterwards are indeed talking and then deciding upon whether or not to up or drop the dosages but that all occurs after the initial diagnosis involving actual testing.

Porch i agree with you but i don't think you understand the process very well and maybe i don't but it's a simple chit chat followed by drugs. Go read up on it. They have no idea if your brain is a problem because majority of people won't have or won't spend the 4k for the brain scan.

I wouldn't spend 4k on a brain scan either. Use medical aid. They are required to pay for all sorts of crap and even the simplest most pathetic hospital plan (like mine ) is required to pay for the base dosages of psychoactive compounds for all sorts of psychological conditions.

I don't have to read up on it, I've lived it with people extremely close to me and I understand the basics of the concepts at play. Admittedly none of them suffered from depression but instead from more severe and potentially dangerous conditions but they still had tests.

I never said the drugs did not work, i just cannot grasp how they can determine what drug you need so simply and easy in one session with virtually no testing, just a chit chat and bam they know what you need. Some people even go tell the guys what they need because they research it on google haha

I used to think like you do. I couldn't believe that they could so accurately have patterns of behaviour to watch out for but I having chatted to these psychiatrists before I am amazed at how good they are at predicting the sorts of behaviours I am going to see in my loved ones afflicted with psychological conditions.

This isn't something they started observing yesterday. They have been watching these sorts of people and refining their diagnosis techniques for generations. Sure it isn't perfect but nothing in life is. It is however the best we have got.

Signal how many people die while taking meds? they kill themselves i wonder if it's more or less than people who don't take drugs, it even says on the package, may lead to suicidal thoughts. I will dig a bit later on regarding the suicide rate of anti depressant users vs people seeking other options.

Of course it might lead to suicidal thoughts. These drugs are psychoactive compounds that have a different effect on different people. Some they help, others they make worse. If the drug makes it worse then you stop that drug and move onto an alternative. Brain chemistry is an extremely complex thing and, just like with the rest of your body, everyone's brain is unique leading to different reactions to different drugs. Nothing is ever set in stone with medication you should know this.

 

[Singal]

So the people on this forum using drugs, have they under gone all of that stuff to determine what is right for them?

Perhaps signal and copa and explain the process they went through before obtaining their meds, i would be interested to hear some stories from the drugs users, mostly it's a bit of chit chat and then you get your drugs.

I can fully understand if people are diagnosed using the methods you suggest but that simply does not happen, it's like candy. Talk a bit and you get your candy.

Copa and signal tell me the process you guys went through before going onto meds please. Who did you see, what tests were conducted and how long did it take for a diagnosis and then from there how long until you got the candy?

Porch i agree with you but i don't think you understand the process very well and maybe i don't but it's a simple chit chat followed by drugs. Go read up on it. They have no idea if your brain is a problem because majority of people won't have or won't spend the 4k for the brain scan.

Copa, signal your input would be good and anyone else currently using drugs. Did you have a brain scan? did you have certain tests done to verify anything or was it a sit down chit chat and you walked out with a letter/script.

I never said the drugs did not work, i just cannot grasp how they can determine what drug you need so simply and easy in one session with virtually no testing, just a chit chat and bam they know what you need. Some people even go tell the guys what they need because they research it on google haha

Signal how many people die while taking meds? they kill themselves i wonder if it's more or less than people who don't take drugs, it even says on the package, may lead to suicidal thoughts. I will dig a bit later on regarding the suicide rate of anti depressant users vs people seeking other options.

Nope, I don't think so. I don't know about Copa, but I'm done providing you with fodder for entertainment. If I'd known you were advocating for scientology, I wouldn't have wasted my time.

 

[porchrat]

You can start here...

I had a good laugh.

 

[copacetic]

Copa and signal tell me the process you guys went through before going onto meds please. Who did you see, what tests were conducted and how long did it take for a diagnosis and then from there how long until you got the candy?

As I have already mentioned, several times probably - I have been to several mental health specialists throughout my life, and have always been diagnosed with clinical depression.

I tried diet, thinking my way out of it, exercise, lifestyle changes, you name it, and nothing remotely worked.

Finally, a year or two ago, I decided to try medication, as I felt I had nothing to lose really, and within a month it engendered a huge and positive change (relatively) in my life.

Dude, you keep asking me to comment on things I have already addressed, pay attention.

*edit*

I don't think it's particularly difficult to diagnose major depressive disorder, by the way. If you feel like I did for two decades, there's a ****ing problem somewhere...

 

[Singal]

I'm sure you're right actually. I can think of one person who is quite incapable of digging herself out of her depression on her own who refused the advice of getting herself medicated. In retrospect she is so helpless that the only way she could get medicated would be to ask her parents to take her to an out patient hospital. I'm think that request would be met with derision. Of course the source of her depressive thinking is her parents! I'll admit I never considered the depth of the problem she is faced with till just now.

I'm glad. If I can make just one person here understand a bit more about depression, my time in this thread was well spent.

 

[FreeStanler]

Porchrat, may I ask what hospital plan you're on?

Otherwise, it really feels as though this thread has become beyond tedious and interesting. The same ideas are mindlessly rehashed over and over, there is very little thought progress and I kinda hope a clinically depressed person doesn't visit this thread, because it has become depressing in its own right. (In the end I use the term loosely for those who worry about the bandied-aboutness of the term)

 

[copacetic]

Certainly wasn't just some chit-chat and then hand out the drugs. There were blood tests, urine tests, brain scans. All sorts.

GPs will hand out AD scripts to new patients after a fifteen minute consultation.

This is absolutely true, and not a good thing.

Not every doctor, obviously, but it happens more often than not, believe me.

 

[Nick333]

I'm glad. If I can make just one person here understand a bit more about depression, my time in this thread was well spent.

It'd be even better spent if you learnt something as well.

 

[porchrat]

GPs will hand out AD scripts to new patients after a fifteen minute consultation.

This is absolutely true, and not a good thing.

Not every doctor, obviously, but it happens more often than not, believe me.

That I don't agree with. If you suffer from depression you should be referred to a specialist.