FTTH Paulshof

PBCool

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Greencom runs on Metrofibre, so you should not be tied into them, you should be able to use other ISPs like cool ideas and Firestream hopefully.

Also do not want to be tied into one ISP

You can, only caveat is that the network is not open access from day 1, you need to wait until the area is complete before "3rd party" providers can place orders with MFN. Greencom and all re-sellers of MFN get first choice at customer base.
 

Wyrd

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Phase roll-out of Paulshof has begun, Vuma ground breaking this week. You can see the map of planned rollouts here

Also, I see pre-order for Phase 2 (the area around the Porche garage) is already open on their website.

Exciting!
 

Greencom

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Just a heads our 1st clients in Paulshof went live last week , so the roll out begins .
 

Drone 42

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Just a heads our 1st clients in Paulshof went live last week , so the roll out begins .

Hi Paul, who was that and who will be next.
Also some observation from me - I think you guys will get much better take up if your connection fees were lowered in line with other providers. Other providers give free routers and charge less or nothing for connection. I think the connection fee of over R1700 are putting a lot of people off.
Some potential clients might just hold out for Vumatel with a wider choice of ISPs also. You guys might need to consider this and maybe offer special deals to improve your take-up.
 

krycor

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Phase roll-out of Paulshof has begun, Vuma ground breaking this week. You can see the map of planned rollouts here

Also, I see pre-order for Phase 2 (the area around the Porche garage) is already open on their website.

Exciting!

I'm in Phase 6 :-(

Will wait it out with my ADSL line..
 

Greencom

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Hi Paul, who was that and who will be next.
Also some observation from me - I think you guys will get much better take up if your connection fees were lowered in line with other providers. Other providers give free routers and charge less or nothing for connection. I think the connection fee of over R1700 are putting a lot of people off.
Some potential clients might just hold out for Vumatel with a wider choice of ISPs also. You guys might need to consider this and maybe offer special deals to improve your take-up.

Hi Paul, who was that and who will be next.
Also some observation from me - I think you guys will get much better take up if your connection fees were lowered in line with other providers. Other providers give free routers and charge less or nothing for connection. I think the connection fee of over R1700 are putting a lot of people off.
Some potential clients might just hold out for Vumatel with a wider choice of ISPs also. You guys might need to consider this and maybe offer special deals to improve your take-up.

Highmeadow and Woodlands estates went live and Hatherway just kicked off , many more to follow !

With regard to the subject of installation fees we will waiver it like other ISP's on a 24 month contract but in saying that im against it as it sort of defeats the whole point of the open access model and the option to move if you are not happy with your provider.

We need to compare apples with apples , Greencom services in Paulshof are running on the Metrofibre Networx core and are all symetric , unshaped and uncapped (unlimited) we have many clients who are using in excess of 1 Terabyte a month. The Wi -Fi CPE delivered is a top end Calix unit that can be managed remotely terminating directly to the fibre not a set up where the fibre is terminated and a 3rd party Wi Fi device is connected to the CPE.

Greencom does not just give you an internet connection , we provide telephonic , remote and onsite support , the onsite support extends to assistance in setting up any 3rd party devices you may want to connect such as smart TV's , cameras , Roku and apple boxes , powerline adapters , cloud storage and gaming boxes , the list goes on . All this onsite support is free of charge and is included in your initial setup fee. Gone are the days of the old faithful 4mbps DSL where you just got connectivity, because you have access to high speed fibre your internet behavior will change with regard to what you do and what you connect, we support you in this without the need to involve 3rd party IT guys .
 

Greencom

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Am i bad mouthing anyone? My apologies if that is how you read it. I was actually commenting on the general state of affairs, but I do see how it could have been perceived differently.

In my opinion Greencom is doing good things, i have nothing but admiration for them. In a high risk environment they have taken the plunge, and are rolling out in general municipal areas. A lot of backing is needed to have the capital to do so. Few people realize it can cost upwards of R20k per residence for the provider to connect a new user. That usually means it takes up to 10 years for a connection to complete ROI.

They also seem to be utilizing some of the most modern methods of fibre deployment available today. We have a slightly different model than theirs, but it doesn't mean i don't respect what they are doing.

While i don't see them on the list of Licensed Providers, the list is often dated, and sometimes companies are licensed under a different corporate entity as their "trade" name.

Just FYI, while fibre installation contractors don't require licensing, anyone who delivers services over fibre, including open access operators, do need to have the relevant licenses to comply with ICASA telecommunications and broadcasting laws.

We are licensed by ICASA and the license numbers are displayed on the foot of our website .
 

Drone 42

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Messages
741
Highmeadow and Woodlands estates went live and Hatherway just kicked off , many more to follow !

With regard to the subject of installation fees we will waiver it like other ISP's on a 24 month contract but in saying that im against it as it sort of defeats the whole point of the open access model and the option to move if you are not happy with your provider.

We need to compare apples with apples , Greencom services in Paulshof are running on the Metrofibre Networx core and are all symetric , unshaped and uncapped (unlimited) we have many clients who are using in excess of 1 Terabyte a month. The Wi -Fi CPE delivered is a top end Calix unit that can be managed remotely terminating directly to the fibre not a set up where the fibre is terminated and a 3rd party Wi Fi device is connected to the CPE.

Greencom does not just give you an internet connection , we provide telephonic , remote and onsite support , the onsite support extends to assistance in setting up any 3rd party devices you may want to connect such as smart TV's , cameras , Roku and apple boxes , powerline adapters , cloud storage and gaming boxes , the list goes on . All this onsite support is free of charge and is included in your initial setup fee. Gone are the days of the old faithful 4mbps DSL where you just got connectivity, because you have access to high speed fibre your internet behavior will change with regard to what you do and what you connect, we support you in this without the need to involve 3rd party IT guys .

Hi Paul,

I am not disputing your products quality or the monthly fees you charge for the service. All I am saying is that the installations costs might be a barrier to entry for a lot of potential customers that might be totally fine with the monthly fees but are put off by the installation fees. I feel you will get far more uptake if these were lower as the monthly costs are not bad.
 

Greencom

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You can, only caveat is that the network is not open access from day 1, you need to wait until the area is complete before "3rd party" providers can place orders with MFN. Greencom and all re-sellers of MFN get first choice at customer base.

This is not strictly true, Greencom get exclusivity only on the builds we have developed personally and have presented as a business case to MFN with a signed MOU from the BC , this only applies during the course of the build . At the end of this period other resellers and open access partners can market in the estates . The same applies to other parties who do the same as Greencom and in this case Greencom will be only able to offer services when the build is complete.

We believe this to be fair as Greencom spend many months of hard work developing complexes, estates and precincts and the same ruling applies to any other provider who wants to take on this work to develop the MFN network.
 

Wyrd

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Mar 23, 2010
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I'm in phase 10, so my best answer unfortunately is, "before me".
 

krycor

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Hi Paul, who was that and who will be next.
Also some observation from me - I think you guys will get much better take up if your connection fees were lowered in line with other providers. Other providers give free routers and charge less or nothing for connection. I think the connection fee of over R1700 are putting a lot of people off.
Some potential clients might just hold out for Vumatel with a wider choice of ISPs also. You guys might need to consider this and maybe offer special deals to improve your take-up.

Only thing that puts me off is that i can't easily choose another ISP. Having experienced ADSL, I know too well that the last mile is only part of the equation so being locked into a single provider is not something i'm interested in. The lock in makes the upfront cost a glaring annoyance because you are locked in while with other providers i don't mind as i can change(openserve)/choose(vuma).

2ndly I favour large cap accounts which are used irrespective of last mile as it makes billing a lot easier for me, hence I am with Afrihost presently and currently use the account at 4 sites.. So Vumatel(upload speen not gimped to sell leased lines.. yes I'm looking at you Telkom, will have to change ISP tho :() and OpenServe(Telkom IPC, uses existing ISPs work) looks like a compelling deal with some slight changes and will likely move to one of these or other which provides decent upload speed and ISP of my choice.
 

Wyrd

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Same thing is happening in our complex. Without consultation, the body corporate decided on Greencom, which promised a roll-out of 4 weeks back in May. Now, seemingly, that's what they're promising again, 4 weeks from start of August. Vuma is obviously a strong option, with digging all over Paulshof now.

Quick Q, does a Memorandum of Understanding with Greencom exclude Vuma from also installing a boundary wall box on the complex?
 

krycor

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Any updates?

PS. If my complex signed an exclusive deal then it just means i wont get fibre and move to VDSL.. yes, I am that uninterested in greencom
 

Swa

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Any updates?

PS. If my complex signed an exclusive deal then it just means i wont get fibre and move to VDSL.. yes, I am that uninterested in greencom
They should stop with these illegal exclusivity deals. Legally no provider can be prevented from laying and providing infrastructure but it would take another court case to resolve this again.
 

Kido

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Jun 24, 2009
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They should stop with these illegal exclusivity deals. Legally no provider can be prevented from laying and providing infrastructure but it would take another court case to resolve this again.

Agreed that is illegal.
If you want fibre all you need is to ensure you get the 30% take-up - if you can achieve this then you can approach any fibre provider and ask them to deploy. Provided the fibre provider already has a presence in the area else it would be too big of an ask.
 

savage

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They should stop with these illegal exclusivity deals. Legally no provider can be prevented from laying and providing infrastructure (on ground own by the municipality) but it would take another court case to resolve this again.

Corrected that for you. If the public areas in the estate is owned by the HOA and not by the city, they can deny you access. Just like a fiber provider can't go digging through private property (erfs).
 

Swa

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Corrected that for you. If the public areas in the estate is owned by the HOA and not by the city, they can deny you access. Just like a fiber provider can't go digging through private property (erfs).
Actually they can. There is no exclusion of private property in the act. If a tenant wants it the HOA can't prevent installation. Private property not using the the services is a grey area. If other public routes are available (which is mostly the case) they have to use those but if no other route is available then the right to access takes precedence.
 

savage

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It's not as easy and simple as that :)

And by all means, I'm not saying it's "correct" either. There are many grey areas in the act. From a BC and Municipalities side, the last thing they want is to have the same road reserves being dug up over and over by various infrastructure providers (and the infrastructure providers hopefully also don't want to duplicate infrastructure). There is also only so much road reserve, and only so many utilities can go into the ground.

What the act also states, is that ducts should be shared. This is not happening - at all. Providers specifically employ PON architecture with splitters on the fiber, so that the actual dark fiber can not be leased out to other operators (i.e. a point to point fiber cannot be leased). The very few, who will lease out duct space (i.e. a single empty microduct) charges so much for the "lease" of this duct, that other operators basically can not make any money from it.

Current fiber deployments IMHO, does not play fairly in terms of the requirements of the act, and neither are any of them open access in the true sense of the word. The SERVICE may be open access yes - other providers can provide service on the infrastructure by utilizing the other operator's PON architecture (and thus is limited to only provide services which is feasible on PON infrastructure), but the actual INFRASTRUCTURE is not open access. There's a fundamental difference between the two as well...

For example:
Company A deploys GPON to Estate X (or Neighborhood X). It's a great success, and many customers and a few ISPs go back and forth in providing services to the community. User A inside the Estate (or Neighborhood) approaches ISP C to commission a 10G circuit - for whatever reason. ISP C respond with a deal and User A signs a contract for the 10G circuit to be provisioned...

ISP C now can't provide the service on Company's A GPON infrastructure as 10G is beyond the capabilities of GPON. Company A also can't give ISP C access to the dark fiber to User A, because the fiber runs through a multitude of splitters. Net result, ISP C can not provide service to User A.

Until such time that actual DARK FIBER is available, and either the physical fiber and/or Microducts can be leased out (at acceptable rates), no infrastructure currently deployed in terms of FTTH is open access. The SERVICE yes, possible. The INFRASTRUCTURE no, definitely NOT open access.

I am actually in the process of designing a FTTH deployment (small pilot area in the WC), where each house will have a dedicated duct, and dedicated fiber. Open access on 1) the Service, 2) the dark fiber, and 3) the actual duct should the service provider want access to the duct. I can tell you right now, there is an ENORMOUS amount of effort going into this.

Whilst it's easy to plan the service and architecture (long done and dusted and completed), the civil planing in terms of way leaves, drawings, "rights of way", etc... It's absolute HELL. The municipalities and other operators makes it as hard as possible for new entrants to stay out of the deployment of FTTH. I, as a Infrastructure provider, literally have to go to the likes of Neotel, Telkom, VC, MTN, DFA, etc, hand my plans drawn out completely to them on a silver platter, and then obtain a "letter of approval" from them where they approve my deployment, before CoCT will even LOOK at me for a way leave. Naturally, the moment I hand over my plans, the like of Telkom, DFA, MTN, Vodacom, etc just take their billions of rands, and jump the gun to get into the area before I can...

The whole principal on how these networks are installed, and the process of how these networks are "authorized" is completely backwards. The way it currently works benefits and enriches the few, whilst the majority is left out in the dark.

The best advice I can give an estate, make sure you OWN the ducts. Immediately, right from day one... Don't be short sighted, and be sure to UNDERSTAND what it is you are signing in terms of a MOU or similar agreements. If they don't want to install and sign over the ducts to you immediately on completion, get someone else to deploy... Ducts and Fiber is cheap, so is the trenching(1).


(1) Municipalities charges a "deposit" to allow for digging in Road Reserves. CoCT for example, wants R950pm for Asphalt Road Crossings, going down to R65pm for Grass Verges. This deposit is paid up front (with other associated costs) when you apply for your way leave to trench. What is happening, is that Civil construction companies work these costs into their quote for trenching, and then come up with those magical numbers of trenching running R450 to R850 per meter (depending on the "conditions" that they trench in).

The fact is, that these fees are a DEPOSIT. The Municipality, refunds these moneys IF re-instatement has been done correctly. So, what happens to this money when the contractor gets his depost back from the municipality? It surely, is not refunded to the residents who's pavements got trenched? I have very good reason to believe that the industry itself (Infrastructure operators / civil companies) pockets this...

So yes, the TRUE cost of trenching, is not NEARLY as high as it is being made out to be... Yes, there are LARGE sums required for deposits and the costs of permits and what not, but the MAJORITY of these fees, are REFUNDABLE DEPOSITS which is returned once the project has been completed...

So yes - what is happening in reality currently, stinks as far as I am concerned and based on information and documentation that I have (in my possession) from CoCT. Other municipalities are a bit more "advanced" in terms of CoCT, but they work in a very similar fashion.
 
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