Going back to the army ?

Sneeky

Honorary Master
Joined
May 5, 2004
Messages
11,064
The "rot" doesn't include me and a lot of people I know which is why I would object to it being across the board. Its rather totalitarian if you ask me. Do you think this would even help? And would it really be as idealistic as you or is it more likely to be an ANC indoctrination course?
You see Syndyre, the minute that it is not an 'across the board' policy it becomes a selective one, or even a discriminatory one at that.

Idealistic maybe, but a place where young South Africans can get together and work together for the benefit of the greater team and the unit that they are in.
In that type of environment where you are pushed to your limit and beyond you quickly realise that social barriers and preconceptions are taboo and if you want to make the journey easier and even enjoyable for yourself and the ones around you, you have to work as a team.
We can all learn from each other. I really believe that and it is when you put people under stress in a managed environment that you often see the best in them and more importantly, they 'realise' the best in themselves.

I dont support any combat or weapons training at all, but an endurance camp or something through the military for all young South Africans is a smashing idea.
There is certainly value in this idea when one looks at national unity and a common identity as South Africans.

Also considering the fact that the AU wants to form a peace keeping force it is an ideal opportunity to expose the youth the the military lifestyle. Those that feel drawn to it could look further to careers in the military.
 
Last edited:

Syndyre

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
16,822
You see Syndyre, the minute that it is not an 'across the board' policy it becomes a selective one, or even a discriminatory one at that.

Idealistic maybe, but a place where young South Africans can get together and work together for the benefit of the greater team and the unit that they are in.
In that type of environment where you are pushed to your limit and beyond you quickly realise that social barriers and preconceptions are taboo and if you want to make the journey easier and even enjoyable for yourself and the ones around you, you have to work as a team.
We can all learn from each other. I really believe that and it is when you put people under stress in a managed environment that you often see the best in them and more importantly, they see the best in themselves.

I dont support any combat or weapons training at all, but an endurance camp or something through the military for all young South Africans is a smashing idea.
There is certainly value in this idea when one looks at national unity and a common identity as South Africans.

Also considering the fact that the AU wants to form a peace keeping force it is an ideal opportunity to expose the youth the the military lifestyle. Those that feel drawn to it could look further to careers in the military.
I just object on principle to anything that takes away people's right to choose. Offer incentives for people to go there sure, maybe if you spend a year doing that you'd be entitled to a government loan for university etc. Or make it mandatory for people convicted of crimes as youths, just don't make it mandatory for everyone.
 

Sneeky

Honorary Master
Joined
May 5, 2004
Messages
11,064
I just object on principle to anything that takes away people's right to choose. Offer incentives for people to go there sure, maybe if you spend a year doing that you'd be entitled to a government loan for university etc. Or make it mandatory for people convicted of crimes as youths, just don't make it mandatory for everyone.
Fair enough and great ideas.
A voluntary program then that reflects the demographics of that specific region with benefits to those that complete the course successfully.
Benefits could be perhaps preference on bursaries or even a job in a government department, god knows we need people there that can pull together for the greater good of the country.
 

Syndyre

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
16,822
Fair enough and great ideas.
A voluntary program then that reflects the demographics of that specific region with benefits to those that complete the course successfully.
Benefits could be perhaps preference on bursaries or even a job in a government department, god knows we need people there that can pull together for the greater good of the country.
Sounds like a good idea. It could even be incorporated into a wider program that offers camps etc. during long school holidays to those who want to go. The big challenge is keeping it non-political, you don't want it to become an exercise in indoctrination.

What might also be an idea, similar to this really, is to have a massive public works program for unemployed people, provide them with accomodation, food etc., pay them a subsistence wage and let them build infrastructure, roads etc. Purely voluntary of course but it might help some people acquire skills, as well as improving the country's infrastructure.
 

Sneeky

Honorary Master
Joined
May 5, 2004
Messages
11,064
I don't think politics would play any roles, it's not a history course but a course in life.
If you speak to anyone that did time in the military they will probably say things like, never again, waste of time, 2 years for what etc, etc. All very true comments with oodles of merit.
However, a large number of them will also say though that although they would never ever do it again, during training they learnt a whole lot about themselves and the people they were with and that that part of it is invaluable.
That now is what the target has to be.

Pipe dreams perhaps, but good ones hey. ;)
 

Syndyre

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
16,822
I don't think politics would play any roles, it's not a history course but a course in life.
If you speak to anyone that did time in the military they will probably say things like, never again, waste of time, 2 years for what etc, etc. All very true comments with oodles of merit.
However, a large number of them will also say though that although they would never ever do it again, during training they learnt a whole lot about themselves and the people they were with and that that part of it is invaluable.
That now is what the target has to be.

Pipe dreams perhaps, but good ones hey. ;)
I just don't trust governments, this one particularly, to keep it non-political. It could be a good idea as long as it was voluntary, although they already have some sort of voluntary option available now, maybe they should publish it and add some incentives.
 

R/SGT

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
1,605
I just don't trust governments, this one particularly, to keep it non-political. It could be a good idea as long as it was voluntary, although they already have some sort of voluntary option available now, maybe they should publish it and add some incentives.
I totally agree, give people a reason to do it.

Why use a whip, when a carrot will work just as well
 

Syndyre

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
16,822
I totally agree, give people a reason to do it.

Why use a whip, when a carrot will work just as well
Exactly, use a whip if they've been convicted of crime and you want to put them in a different program, just don't apply it to everyone.
 

DigitalSoldier

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Messages
10,182
Exactly, use a whip if they've been convicted of crime and you want to put them in a different program, just don't apply it to everyone.
There was a discussion about this on 702 about an hour ago an old guy phoned in and told the story.

How back in the day a young white guy raped a black girl, and he had to get a whipslashing for 2 years every month. Anywayz the old man said that he met the "rapist" again a few years ago again and the guy told him that it wasnt the whipping that got him but the anticipation of waiting for it to happen every month and he never did any crime after that again.

The comment was made because of the waterkloof 4 rehabilitation/punishment.

But corporal punishment is ruled out by our constitution these days
 

Lord Anubis

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2005
Messages
3,764
/ me sniffs @ BTech

smells like ****

/me conludes that Btech must be an @sshole

who's ROFLMAO now ? :D :D

sniff sniff sniff .... and I smell a TROLL.

Dude, seriously.... you make me ROFLMAO. Anyone who actually believes that our economy could actually survive another conscription disaster like "THE GRENS" is smokin Crak. The ministers words have been taken our of context and as usual some noobs run with this as if it were gonna happen yesterday. .... they would have to go through a whole act of parlaiment to get conscription up and going and then where would the money come from??

EEEIIISSSSHHHHH VD!!:p OOPS sorry VernD:sick:
 

LoneGunman

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2003
Messages
4,552
This Government has shown by its actions, that it is happy to go into debt
in order to continue doing what it wants to do.

600 - 1100 daily deaths from AID's - costs a LOT of money- hospital bedspace,
services, funeral arrangements, lost man hours for 600-1100 grieving families each
day, loss of labour hours to industry..
But the ANC seems to think this cost, and the loss of life, is 'cheaper' than
the cost of supplying adequate medicines and education.

Therefore, if the ANC figures creating an Army, can somehow fit in with its
(unknown) plans for South African society - it really doesn't matter ultimately what
Parliament says, or the minority of taxpayers might feel.
What the ANC 'wants' to do - is what the ANC WILL do.

Based on the historical results of African countries creating armies when
there's no external threat to justify it - the ANC is juggling its 'democratic'
image with the traditional African model of 'when in social doubt, make an
army - and find ways of waging war with someone'

The SA arms industries, I promise you, are pushing for this conscription idea -
as war and weapons, are really really good for business.
Think back to the days of national service. Industries were/are set up to supply
every aspect of the troopies gear.. and instead of SA arms firms supplying elsewhere
in the world, as they are doing, they get to supply the locals again.

"War" is good for business.
 
Last edited:

noxibox

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
17,591
I think the gangs will love this. They'll have a massive supply of trained soldiers to deploy for criminal activities, to take on the police and to control their territories.
 

Syndyre

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
16,822
There was a discussion about this on 702 about an hour ago an old guy phoned in and told the story.

How back in the day a young white guy raped a black girl, and he had to get a whipslashing for 2 years every month. Anywayz the old man said that he met the "rapist" again a few years ago again and the guy told him that it wasnt the whipping that got him but the anticipation of waiting for it to happen every month and he never did any crime after that again.

The comment was made because of the waterkloof 4 rehabilitation/punishment.

But corporal punishment is ruled out by our constitution these days
I didn't mean a literal whip but I know what you mean.
 

OhGats

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2006
Messages
935
I think a years community service for youngsters is a great idea, teach them a trade and get them to work for the community, they can even build stadiums for 2010 or lay sleepers for the gautrain, work in hospitals and police stations, fix roads, trek bossies uit, in fact anything that a community needs. At the moment we have compulsory community service for doctors and medical professionals anyway and whether they like it or not it does give them experience. Too many of the youngsters leave school and become sluipskutters and aimless cellphone clutching souls with no righting, discipline or job prospects, it may even be good for them! I dont think military service is a great idea though, we dont want them all playing with guns, they will end up killing all of us. I also think that it should be instituted for girls too, and I am pleased to say the only ones who wont have to do it will be pale males because they dont want us here anyway. I do know however that most of the richer people will send their kids out of the country so fast your head will spin.
I did my 2 years and it was bad, but when I came out I was a much better disciplined person than when I went in. Most ex SADF guys did better at their studies than those who went into them straight after school. Unfortunately we were only available for 9 months of a year, the rest of the time we were nailed with camps for 12 years.
 

Syndyre

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
16,822
I think a years community service for youngsters is a great idea, teach them a trade and get them to work for the community, they can even build stadiums for 2010 or lay sleepers for the gautrain, work in hospitals and police stations, fix roads, trek bossies uit, in fact anything that a community needs. At the moment we have compulsory community service for doctors and medical professionals anyway and whether they like it or not it does give them experience. Too many of the youngsters leave school and become sluipskutters and aimless cellphone clutching souls with no righting, discipline or job prospects, it may even be good for them! I dont think military service is a great idea though, we dont want them all playing with guns, they will end up killing all of us. I also think that it should be instituted for girls too, and I am pleased to say the only ones who wont have to do it will be pale males because they dont want us here anyway. I do know however that most of the richer people will send their kids out of the country so fast your head will spin.
I did my 2 years and it was bad, but when I came out I was a much better disciplined person than when I went in. Most ex SADF guys did better at their studies than those who went into them straight after school. Unfortunately we were only available for 9 months of a year, the rest of the time we were nailed with camps for 12 years.
It may be good for some people but I really don't think it should be mandatory. Even if it is implemented now I'm sure I've missed it by a few years but if they tried to drag me into something like this I'd be heading for the border so quickly...
 

R/SGT

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
1,605
While a forced conscription may be unpleasant in todays south africa it might not be such a bad idea, youngsters <21 seem to have no respect for themselves, their parents, the law or their country.

Looking at the Waterkloof 4 and other incidents that I have seen and heard of, makes me think that it is neccessary in order to instill a sense of social responsibility in citizens.

I am not refering to any sort of political indoctrination but rather a sense of community, where people are willing to help and look out for others. I

have seen quite a few instances where people have driven past accident scenes, ignored people who were screaming for help and looked the other way as another person is robbed or assaulted. I am not saying that people should rush into anything withought due regard for their own safety.

While it is a work of fiction, I thought the idea put across in the book starship troopers had some value

Starship Troopers is a political essay as well as a novel. Large portions of the book take place in classrooms, with Rico and other characters engaged in debates with their History and Moral Philosophy teachers, who are often thought to be speaking in Heinlein's voice. The overall theme of the book is that social responsibility requires individual sacrifice. Heinlein's Terran Federation is a limited democracy with aspects of a meritocracy based on willingness to sacrifice in the common interest. Suffrage belongs only to those willing to serve their society by two years of volunteer Federal Service (there is no draft)—"the franchise is today limited to discharged veterans," (ch. XII), instead of anyone ("...who is 18 years old and has a body temperature near 37 °C."[13]). There is an explicitly made contrast to the democracies of the 20th century, which according to the novel were flawed (and collapsed) because "people had been led to believe that they could simply vote for whatever they wanted . . . and get it, without toil, without sweat, without tears."[14] Indeed, Col. Dubois criticizes as unrealistic the famous U.S. Declaration of Independence guarantees concerning "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers#Major_themes

What do you think?
 
Last edited:

Syndyre

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
16,822
While a forced conscription may be unpleasant in todays south africa it might not be such a bad idea, youngsters <21 seem to have no respect for themselves, their parents, the law or their country.

Looking at the Waterkloof 4 and other incidents that I have seen and heard of, makes me think that it is neccessary in order to instill a sense of social responsibility in citizens.
Are these people really the majority? Hopefully not but even if they are I still don't think the other people that aren't going around assaulting others etc. need to thrown into the scheme. We're also assuming that this is magically going to make people into upstanding, respectable citizens, is there any evidence of this at all?

Aside from that, what about the logistics? Conscription before was implemented for what, 10% of the population? How can the government realistically accomodate a 1000% increase? Should this program even be male-only? There's no reason why it should be today, especially considering it seems to have non-military aims. That's another 1000% increase.
 

Syndyre

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
16,822
Generally I don't think a qualified franchise is a bad idea, although that could be one of many factors. There could also be factors that disqualify you e.g. a criminal record.
 
Top