How is MWEB a Tier 1 network?

[nakedpeanut]

I don't see how people can regard Mweb as a Tier 1 network:
Wikipedia
Form this article I'd say Mweb is Tier 2, and AfriHost Tier 3..

So how does this tie in with the various IP classes?

Class A
• 00000001 – 1. . .
• 01111111 – 127. . .
Class B
• 10000000 – 128
• 10111111 – 191
Class C
• 11000000 – 192
• 11011111 – 223
Class D
• 11100000 – 224
• 11101111 – 239


From my understanding I think Telkom has the only Class A network in South Africa.
since they have a 41.*.*.*

Just going through the forums I noticed that Mweb, WebAfrica, AfriHost are from the same class, ie Class C.
Ok these are IP's of people's accounts:
Afrihost: 196.210.*.*
Mweb: 196.28.*.*
WebAfrica: 196.220*.*


Can someone maybe enlighten me?

 

[KillerB]

well vodacom acounts are 41.*.*.*

 

[rurapente]

I'm too tired to post much, but read this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_ISP

your Tier status has nothing to do with which IP blocks you own, those are assigned and sold using different rules and so forth. Mweb is a Tier 1 ISP, because they now peer with other Tier 1's instead of connecting back into a Tier 1. See the Wikipedia article for the whole lowdown.

 

[nakedpeanut]

I'm too tired to post much, but read this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_ISP

your Tier status has nothing to do with which IP blocks you own, those are assigned and sold using different rules and so forth. Mweb is a Tier 1 ISP, because they now peer with other Tier 1's instead of connecting back into a Tier 1. See the Wikipedia article for the whole lowdown.

lol thats the link i gave btw

haha but still Tier_2_network

A Tier 2 Network is an Internet service provider who engages in the practice of peering with other networks, but who still purchases IP transit to reach some portion of the Internet.

And I believe Mweb does just that? dont they?

 

[Gordon_R]

The address blocks are a historical relic of the original US based IPv4, and don't really mean anything these days.

The Wikipedia article, if read literally, indicates that there are only 10 Tier-1 ISPs on earth, and all of them are in North America. The related article also states that France Télécom is Tier-2, and it is hard to believe than MWeb is 'bigger' than the French national carrier.

The article also states that the whole concept has been degraded by marketing, and non-disclosure agreements make it impossible to establish the real truth. No ISP in the US or elsewhere 'wants' to connect to South Africa, so it is highly likely that local ISPs pay peering fees:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peering_point

 

[rurapente]

Mweb now has the same peering, as IS and competes with them on a network level. So unless IS stopped being a Tier 1 somewhere then I stand corrected.

[Edit : either way if the lingo is used interchangeably for marketing purposes, the fact remains Mweb is a player on the IS/MTN/Verizon front now. Whereas they were not before]

 

[d$k_1]

My current IP reading from MWeb is 41x.xxx.xxx.xxx
But my afrihost and axxess accs read as 196x.xxx.xxx.xxx

Maybe the tier thing is a misguided term because WebAfrica are supposed to be Tier 1 as well ?

 

[Lightscribe]

The address blocks are a historical relic of the original US based IPv4, and don't really mean anything these days.

The Wikipedia article, if read literally, indicates that there are only 10 Tier-1 ISPs on earth, and all of them are in North America. The related article also states that France Télécom is Tier-2, and it is hard to believe than MWeb is 'bigger' than the French national carrier.

The article also states that the whole concept has been degraded by marketing, and non-disclosure agreements make it impossible to establish the real truth. No ISP in the US or elsewhere 'wants' to connect to South Africa, so it is highly likely that local ISPs pay peering fees:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peering_point

Makes me think of the recent "agreement" between AT&T and telkom...

 

[nakedpeanut]

As far as i can gather Mweb and Web Africa are just using Tier 1 as a marketing thing? Or people are falsely assuming they are Tier 1?

 

[gregmcc]

A tiered network has got nothing to do with the number of IP's assigned to you.

All the different subnet classes tell you is how many IP's the company owns.

If your a tier1 ISP it just means that you do not purchase internet from any other provider.

 

[nakedpeanut]

A tiered network has got nothing to do with the number of IP's assigned to you.

All the different subnet classes tell you is how many IP's the company owns.

If your a tier1 ISP it just means that you do not purchase internet from any other provider.

Ic...
But define purchase internet? I assume the buying of capacity on Seacom or sat3 does not count?
So we define purchasing internet: as the way in which Afrihost purchases per GB from IS

Thus according to this definition Mweb is a Tier 1 provider

EDIT: Thanks for all the input

 

[snobee]

A tiered network has got nothing to do with the number of IP's assigned to you.

All the different subnet classes tell you is how many IP's the company owns.

If your a tier1 ISP it just means that you do not purchase internet from any other provider.

Agreed. As far as I am concerned, a Tier 1 is going to get me the most direct link to the International pipes connecting South Africa to the rest of the world. If my ISP is connecting to another ISP, which connects to SAIX for example, then my ISP is not a tier 1. My ISP must have its OWN international bandwidth that it is buying from the Seacom or SAIX. I think things are becoming complicated these days with ISP's buying bandwidth from IS for example that is SEACOM or SAIX, and then claiming to be a Tier 1. To a degree they are partially correct, but if my ISP is routing through another ISP on the way to the international provider, then I believe they are not officially tier 1.

 

[hambone]

Also, how does the "last telkom mile" factor into all this, or doesn't that count either?

 

[snobee]

Also, how does the "last telkom mile" factor into all this, or doesn't that count either?

Well Telkom will have the monopoly on this currently. Give a few years and hopefully this will change. Though, this does not factor into being a Tier 1.

 

[gripen]

Tier-1 = purchase own international links to the Internet and peer with other Tier-1s (this means purchase IPLCs from Telkom or Neotel in SA). Examples include Telkom, Neotel, IS, Vodacom Business
Tier-2 = purchase Internet connectivity from a Tier-1 ISP (Layer 3 connectivity i.e. Internet bandwidth/transit NOT IPLCs). Examples are few and far between as most ISPs buy a mix of IPLCs and other services
Tier-3 = Reseller of Tier-1/Tier-2 services (Afrihost, Axxess etc)

Note that this has nothing to do with IPConnect (though it seems WebAfrica considered themselves Tier-1 when they purchased IPConnect..)

What does it matter anyway? Who cares if you buy your GBs from Tier-1 or Tier-7. Call it what it is.. you are buying redundancy not buying Tier-1 services. Example: MWeb uncapped etc most likely does not have restoration on their SEACOM bandwidth whereas Telkom, Vodacom etc do in fact have restoration (SAT-3 with SAFE or SEACOM for restoration on IPLCs). I don't care about Tiers... but if you are talking about redundancy then you can be a Tier-4 for all I care.. as long as you have backup paths and sufficient bandwidth

 

[hambone]

Well Telkom will have the monopoly on this currently. Give a few years and hopefully this will change. Though, this does not factor into being a Tier 1.

LLU by 2011? Methinks not, but patience perhaps? Anyway, so MWEB say they are Tier 1.

MWEB traffic goes: USER --> EXCHANGE --> MWEB (Victory Park) --> MIDRAND --> SEACOM (SAT-3 Redundancy)? Thus MWEB connects its own network to SEACOM at Midrand, making it Tier 1?

AXXESS traffic goes: USER --> EXCHANGE --> AXXESS --> IS --> SAT-3/SATELLITE/SEACOM? Thus Axxess connects to IS a tier 1 operator, thus making it tier 2/3? Haven't the foggiest idea how this works, but i'm interested. Please excuse my ignorance.

 

[ponder]

IP Allocation has nothing to with Tier1, Tier2 etc

Mweb now has the same peering, as IS and competes with them on a network level. So unless IS stopped being a Tier 1 somewhere then I stand corrected.

[Edit : either way if the lingo is used interchangeably for marketing purposes, the fact remains Mweb is a player on the IS/MTN/Verizon front now. Whereas they were not before]

My current IP reading from MWeb is 41x.xxx.xxx.xxx
But my afrihost and axxess accs read as 196x.xxx.xxx.xxx

Maybe the tier thing is a misguided term because WebAfrica are supposed to be Tier 1 as well ?

As far as i can gather Mweb and Web Africa are just using Tier 1 as a marketing thing? Or people are falsely assuming they are Tier 1?

Ic...
But define purchase internet? I assume the buying of capacity on Seacom or sat3 does not count?
So we define purchasing internet: as the way in which Afrihost purchases per GB from IS

Thus according to this definition Mweb is a Tier 1 provider

EDIT: Thanks for all the input

Agreed. As far as I am concerned, a Tier 1 is going to get me the most direct link to the International pipes connecting South Africa to the rest of the world. If my ISP is connecting to another ISP, which connects to SAIX for example, then my ISP is not a tier 1. My ISP must have its OWN international bandwidth that it is buying from the Seacom or SAIX. I think things are becoming complicated these days with ISP's buying bandwidth from IS for example that is SEACOM or SAIX, and then claiming to be a Tier 1. To a degree they are partially correct, but if my ISP is routing through another ISP on the way to the international provider, then I believe they are not officially tier 1.

There are NO Tier1 isp's service providers in SA, only 10 in the whole world.

Tier1 providers do not pay for bandwidth, their peering agreements with other Tier1 providers are at no cost. Tier1 providers do sell bandwidth at a cost to Tier2 providers.

SA isp's are BSing people as per usual with their incorrect usage of words.

The 10 Tier1 service providers and their AS numbers are:
AT&T AS7018
Global Crossing (GBLX) AS3549
Level 3 Communications (L3) AS3356
TeliaSonera International Carrier AS1299
NTT Communications AS2914
Qwest AS209
Sprint AS1239
Tata Communications (formerly Teleglobe) AS6453
Verizon Business (formerly UUNET) AS701
Savvis AS3561

 

[cda]

From my understanding I think Telkom has the only Class A network in South Africa.
since they have a 41.*.*.*

Network tier has nothing to do with ip-block size.

Also you seem confused about what a network class is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classful_network

It has no relevance in this day since everything is CIDR. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classless_Inter-Domain_Routing

 

[cda]

There are NO Tier1 isp's service providers in SA, only 10 in the whole world.

That's not correct. MTN, IS and Tenet are probably Tier 1 ISPs, there may be others.

Tier1 providers do not pay for bandwidth.

That's a bit misleading. Peering agreements are very much always a shared cost since fibre does not grow on trees, so someone always pays for bandwidth but not always IP transit, however the net contribution from each side may be equal in many circumstances, or at various points in time. It's impossible to say they are settlement free all the time.

More importantly though, Seacom and SAT-3 are not IP transit. The problem is that none of these businesses are going to disclose their IP transit settlements if they have any.

 

[cda]

Tier-1 = purchase own international links to the Internet and peer with other Tier-1s (this means purchase IPLCs from Telkom or Neotel in SA). Examples include Telkom, Neotel, IS, Vodacom Business

Sorry but Vodacom Business still purchase upstream IP transit from Telkom. Neotel purchases upstream IP transit from VSNL/Teleglobe. Neither of them are Tier-1 in any sense of the word.