How will the ANC rig this election?

SA desperately needs people like you I must say. Within a few years, this country would be a great country to live in for everyone.

My main concern in this country is crime, poverty, education, health, etc....and all these things are interlinked. The ANC has done a terrible job in solving these things.

They cannot solve it as they are the creators and remain the main cause of it. They run the system and kills off everything that worked, implement new trial structures and sytems that failed eventually.
 
SA desperately needs people like you I must say. Within a few years, this country would be a great country to live in for everyone.

My main concern in this country is crime, poverty, education, health, etc....and all these things are interlinked. The ANC has done a terrible job in solving these things.


+1

The crime/poverty/education situation drives me up the walls. My cousin (A Civil Engineer) left for Phoenix Arizon after graduation cos he was fed up..but I cant leave, cos I just happen to know too and do stuff that can create employment, give some hope.

but when ever I read about another brutal robbery/rape..I just want to..ARRRG! you know what I mean :mad:
 
At this level the best thing we personally can do is Vote with our head and educate our children to do the same.

One of the early posters hit the nail on the head about Voter education.
Current Voter education is only how to actually vote. The ethics and thought behind who you should choose to vote for is completely ignored or left to people like The Malema Roadshow to deal with.
The IEC as an independant authority should be responsible for this.

Too many of the voter roll vote based on Race or habit without actually considering how it effects them.
 
At this level the best thing we personally can do is Vote with our head and educate our children to do the same.

One of the early posters hit the nail on the head about Voter education.
Current Voter education is only how to actually vote. The ethics and thought behind who you should choose to vote for is completely ignored or left to people like The Malema Roadshow to deal with.
The IEC as an independant authority should be responsible for this.

Too many of the voter roll vote based on Race or habit without actually considering how it effects them.

+1000

Vital stuff right there. Because all it takes is cheap shots from Malema for entire village populations to be swayed.


people need to know what voting means and the power that comes with it
 
At this level the best thing we personally can do is Vote with our head and educate our children to do the same.

One of the early posters hit the nail on the head about Voter education.
Current Voter education is only how to actually vote. The ethics and thought behind who you should choose to vote for is completely ignored or left to people like The Malema Roadshow to deal with.
The IEC as an independant authority should be responsible for this.

Too many of the voter roll vote based on Race or habit without actually considering how it effects them.

True. I think the new generation will have better understanding of the whole thing. Unlike the oom Van der merwe or Tshabalalas of this country. Some of these "old" people are a danger to the youth. They are the ones (even the community around) who teach the kids to hate the other races. The sooner they leave, the better. :)
 
True. I think the new generation will have better understanding of the whole thing. Unlike the oom Van der merwe or Tshabalalas of this country. Some of these "old" people are a danger to the youth. They are the ones (even the community around) who teach the kids to hate the other races. The sooner they leave, the better. :)

Do you think they will really? Think about how many of them are being indoctrinated at the moment.

True, a much higher percentage will Vote with their heads but nowhere near enough and until they do this country isn't going to move in the right direction quickly enough.
 
Do you think they will really? Think about how many of them are being indoctrinated at the moment.

True, a much higher percentage will Vote with their heads but nowhere near enough and until they do this country isn't going to move in the right direction quickly enough.

As much as I wish it could happen, I'm afraid it won't happen any time soon. Sad reality.
 
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That is unfortunately how i feel too.

Whats even more unfortunate is that nothing is being done by any of the opposition parties around this.

While they shouldn't start trying to educate voters themselves they should be trying to pressure the IEC to do it.
What they do have within their power though is to step up education (not voter education) in general every chance they get.
It's very much a long term plan but in the end it will bear results.

The one step in the right direction I saw was a suggestion by Helen Zille for a more typical voting system where people didn't just vote for a party but they voted for their immediate party representative making them directly responsible for their immediate link to government.
 
At this level the best thing we personally can do is Vote with our head and educate our children to do the same.

One of the early posters hit the nail on the head about Voter education.
Current Voter education is only how to actually vote. The ethics and thought behind who you should choose to vote for is completely ignored or left to people like The Malema Roadshow to deal with.
The IEC as an independant authority should be responsible for this.

Too many of the voter roll vote based on Race or habit without actually considering how it effects them.
Man, this should be on the front page of the national newspapers. Can I quote you on this?

This has been an interesting thread to catch up on. Stoke had some excellent posts, and Vegeta has been bringing the other side of the argument - albeit not as convincingly as hoped. I've spent time going through the various manifestos (as has my Sotho associate), and as a voter who voted in his first election in 1994 at the tender age of 18, I feel I can bring something to the conversation.

First off, I think most people agree that BEE has been a failure, and that EE for the most part has brought some fairness into the workplace. However, I believe that 14 years is enough, and that we should now be looking at an equal opportunity workplace. For example, why should my associate's son have preference over my son purely because of the colour of his skin? The both started school at the same time, let's say 13 years ago, in a new era. They both went to the same school, received the same education. Both excelled at their various subjects, and both are eligible for the same job. Why should they suffer/benefit from something that ended a decade and a half ago, and is totally outside of their control?!

Also, I see my manager (large corporate firm) mull over the BBBEE figures constantly. "We need to hire a,b or c to keep the percentages right". Nothing makes him more agitated. Then we take a look at the small business down the road. The owner needs more workers, but is strangled into either taking on based on colour, or not taking on at all (even worse for job creation) because of the restrictive laws currently in place. Why?!

Anyhow, having looked at the respective promises, and having watched the election scene for the last year or so, I will not only choose to vote for whom I think will govern best based on promises made AND past performance. I don't think it is a difficult decision. I will also be passing on that information to others that are interested - informing all that I can so that SA stands the best chance of coming out of the election with the best chance at the future. That's all we can ask for, really, isn't it?

It was mentioned earlier that the fear is that if a "white" party comes into power, that they will remove everything that makes us democratic? How about the current plans to place the head of state above the law, in order to prevent Zuma from being prosecuted (assuming the ANC remains in power)? That scares me more than anything else - that one person is threatening the entire constitution for his own gain - and I will do what I can to prevent it.
 
Stoke had some excellent posts, and Vegeta has been bringing the other side of the argument - albeit not as convincingly as hoped.
Lol me = fail :o
I wasn't really trying to debate was really posting between doing things here but i'm glad i could bring "something" to the table.

We're doing a healthy thing openly talking about these things and it shows that political and racial tolerance has come a LONG LONG way since boeta Botha and the like's days.
 
And what incentive does white voters have for voteing for the shield and spear vs Botox Lady?

OFF TOPIC

I'm starting to think Helen Zille did Botox just so as to hand her opponents some "ammunition" that would make them look even more idiotic than they really are. Think about it: she runs the official opposition, criticises and annoys the ruling party at every turn, says a lot of sensible and very valid things ... and all the ANC can do to counter this is day: "Well... um... _you_ got _Botox_, so weeh!"

Hats off to Helen. She lets the ANC make itself look stupid! :-D
 
Whats wrong with botox? All woman her age should have botox, Zuma should actually consider it himself those court cases putting a frown on the face o Zumi? The ANC does make themself look stupid they are disorganized and i've lost alot of respect for them.

OFFTOPIC: Zille should seriously consider a boob job and some lip injections now that would be something to talk about.
 
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Lol me = fail :o
<snip>
Kekekekeke. Actually, I enjoyed your reasoning a lot more than my sideways posts.

I wanted to get discuss BEE and AA before, but I failed because of work.

Basically, AA and BEE are cop-outs. The real question that is not being answered is : Why is that person less qualified for the position?

The answer is because that person does not have the required level of education / skills.

By throwing AA and BEE at the problem, we (yes, all of us) have obscured the real problem, and that is a disaster more dangerous and sad than any corrupt official will ever be.

This is our country, there is no us and them, and any party that takes an us and them attitude should be thrown out of the country.
 
It was mentioned earlier that the fear is that if a "white" party comes into power, that they will remove everything that makes us democratic? How about the current plans to place the head of state above the law, in order to prevent Zuma from being prosecuted (assuming the ANC remains in power)? That scares me more than anything else - that one person is threatening the entire constitution for his own gain - and I will do what I can to prevent it.

I hope my contribution would also be seen as an addition to some lively debate. I never liked Jacob Zuma - I just didn't like him. When I heard that he was the ANC's choice for the next president, I was sort-of horrified.

Then the whole saga of arms-deal came about and I saw a lot of seemingly innocuous mistakes being made. Firstly, a commission was not given enough mandate to investigate everything about the arms-deal. Then the judge concerned tried to force his commission to operate outside the terms of reference, urged on by the usual cheerleaders in the DA and ID. 2 mistakes here: 1.Why was it that the commission was not given enough mandate to investigate the arms-deal saga fully? 2. Why did a judge try to operate outside of his mandate? Why did he try to disregard the law?

Mbeki was clearly not happy and he steadfastly refused to appoint a special commission to investigate the arms-deal. I could understand that he was a bit unhappy at attempts to pre-empt him, but I though he should have had better control of his ego and allowed the probe to go ahead. He didn't and that was mistake number 3. Still seemingly innocuous.

Small mistake number 4. One day the then Director of Public Prosecutions tells the media that there is a prima facie case of corruption against Zuma, but they won't prosecute, because the chances of winning it are slim. Seems like a reasonable thing to do, instead of wasting tax-payers money. However, this is devastating to Zuma's public perception. Then Zuma cried out and complained that he was being found guilty through trial by the media. Of course he was right. He also demanded to have his day in court to clear his name. Fine.

Then, Shabir Shaik was convicted of fraud and corruption. The media reported that the judge had said there was a generally corrupt relationship between Mr Shaik and Mr Zuma. The judge issued a statement refuting those reports, but the media ignored him and continued to imply that he had said there was a generally corrupt relationship between Shaik and Zuma. This, of course, meant that Zuma was also corrupt. How convenient!

Small mistake number 5. Mbeki, taking me by surprise at his rashness, which was at odds with his personality, fires Zuma - from the government and from his post as deputy-president of the ANC. Do you fire someone without a hearing? Regarding the ANC post, since when does an elected official get fired without due process? The ANC reversed the sacking from the ANC post and re-instated Zuma. The question is - Doesn't Mbeki understand anything at all about procedure? Or is Zuma exempted from those annoying considerations?

Small mistake number 6. So, the NPA and the Scorpions charge Zuma, to give him what he craved for : His Day in Court. In so doing, they raid his house and offices and confiscate countless documents. Zuma immediately runs to the courts to see if his rights are not being trampled upon. The courts agree that the raids were illegal and that some of the documents could not be used as evidence in court. Now, you have the NPA and the Scorpions breaking the law - The law breaking the law! But that is a small mistake, we all make mistakes, don't we? Right.

Small mistake number 7. The case is heard and evidence is heard. The NPA is using the illegally obtained documents as evidence, against a clear order by the court not to do so, making one judge absolutely mad in the process. The case is of course dismissed and Zuma is free to go. The question is: Why did the NPA defy a court order and try to use illegal evidence? Why is this Agency breaking the law with such impunity. Or is this another forgivable mistake? Or Are they deliberately undermining the law to not only prosecute Zuma, but to persecute him? If I was Zuma, I would think there was a conspiracy to undermine my rights too.

By this time, a Zuma-hater like me is beginning to wonder what really is going on here. By this time I am beginning to see a man who has been found guilty and crucified, without any proof of guilt. And I start feeling for him. Of course I look at the facts and only the facts.

Before the dust has settled on this one, a woman out of nowhere, complains that Zuma has raped her. Zuma repeatedly tells people that he respects the court and he will comply with the court's ruling. It turns out that the woman has already falsely accused 4 other people of rape. Meanwhile, in an answer to a question by the prosecution (the question was: What did you do after sex with the woman (I am paraphrasing)) Zuma answered that he took a shower. The media reports that he said he took the shower to minimise the chances of contracting AIDS. He is roundly derided for this. The question is - Who does not take a shower after sex? Anyway Zuma is acquitted - the woman's story was very unconvincing to the court. From this case we are meant to believe that Zuma is now a rapist. Didn't the court find him innocent? Who is placing himself above the law? Zuma or his detractors?


So, the NPA decides that they are going to recharge him. They recharge him, but they do not let him make any submissions. It seems like this is odd - he should be allowed to make some submissions, according to his lawyers. The NPA says - No, Making submissions is a privilege, not a right. So Zuma applies to the Durban High Court to block the case from going forward. The judge agrees and is at pains to explain that Zuma is being persecuted and has been persecuted for a very long time by the NPA, urged on by conspirators at high places. He therefore throws the case out. Newspaper reports gleefully that Zuma is raping the law and is putting himself above the law. And yet, it was the court - the law, that said that Zuma's case should not be allowed to go ahead. Amazing!

The NPA takes the case to the supreme court of appeals. Zuma again tells people that he will respect the court's ruling. The judge there nixes the previous judge's ruling in one of the most scathing attacks by a judge on another. So, the NPA can go ahead with their case. But, and it is a big BUT, Zuma is free to lodge an appeal with the constitutional court if he so wishes. So Zuma lodges an appeal with the Constitutional Court. Again people start crying murder. Zuma is placing himself above the law, the constitution and our democracy is in danger! Really?

In all of this, it is clear that Zuma has been a model citizen, respecting the law all the way and yet people say he is placing himself above the law. The only way to explain this obsession that Zuma is guilty of something is to conclude that he has been tried and found guilty by the media and the public, without any fair trial. There is no court yet that has found him guilty, so why are people so convinced that he is anti-law and anti-constituion?

It is very ironic, but Zuma's character has been raped and is continually being raped, by the very people who falsely accuse him of being a rapist. It is sad to see, but this is what rape does to a person. People take what you thought was yours by force, your dignity, and you are left there to suffer. So, the real rapists are Zuma's accusers.
 
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(Snipped ... good post, though.)

It is very ironic, but Zuma's character has been raped and is continually being raped, by the very people who falsely accuse him of being a rapist. It is sad to see, but this is what rape does to a person. People take what you thought was yours by force, your dignity, and you are left there to suffer. So, the real rapists are Zuma's accusers.

Hm. If Zuma were any other average citizen, I might agree with you. However, he's going to be leading the country very soon. And unfortunately for Zuma, leaders are held to higher moral codes than the rest of us.

So his rape story wasn't about rape - it was about the future leader of South Africa having unprotected sex with an HIV-positive family friend young enough to be his daughter. His shower comments just made it all the more ridiculous.

The arms deal corruption trial isn't about the arms deal - it's about the future leader of South Africa abusing his position to block his trial at every turn.

Zuma has been charged with corruption. You can't charge people with no evidence of wrongdoing. If the NPA ever tried to do that, Zuma would have shot them down in an instant. But instead, he went out of his way to block them from obtaining evidence which - were he innocent - would have proved exactly that. If he was really that unhappy with his privacy being invaded (as he claimed), he is perfectly welcome to step down and become an ordinary private citizen.

As a politician and a leader, Zuma cannot carry himself as an ordinary person who makes ordinary mistakes. He will soon represent every single person in South Africa on the international stage, and the effects of his representation will be felt by every person in South Africa.

He needs to do better, and if he can't do better, he must go.
 
Hm. If Zuma were any other average citizen, I might agree with you. However, he's going to be leading the country very soon. And unfortunately for Zuma, leaders are held to higher moral codes than the rest of us.

So his rape story wasn't about rape - it was about the future leader of South Africa having unprotected sex with an HIV-positive family friend young enough to be his daughter. His shower comments just made it all the more ridiculous.

The arms deal corruption trial isn't about the arms deal - it's about the future leader of South Africa abusing his position to block his trial at every turn.

Zuma has been charged with corruption. You can't charge people with no evidence of wrongdoing. If the NPA ever tried to do that, Zuma would have shot them down in an instant. But instead, he went out of his way to block them from obtaining evidence which - were he innocent - would have proved exactly that. If he was really that unhappy with his privacy being invaded (as he claimed), he is perfectly welcome to step down and become an ordinary private citizen.

As a politician and a leader, Zuma cannot carry himself as an ordinary person who makes ordinary mistakes. He will soon represent every single person in South Africa on the international stage, and the effects of his representation will be felt by every person in South Africa.

He needs to do better, and if he can't do better, he must go.

I see your points clearly. I just think that we are expecting too much out of one man. I think Zuma represents his organization very well, because,and I am convinced, he is no worse than any other ANC leader out there, past or present. The ANC has many skeletons and I think it is unfair to make Zuma the scapegoat.

To be more specific, Mbeki and his government are guilty in this arms-deal saga. After all, he is the one who blocked any investigation into the arms-deal. And I think some very respected people are also involved in this. I said that Zuma is no more corrupt than any other ANC leader, past or present. I would have expected the ANC to protect Zuma just like others, but Mbeki targeted him specifically. The question is why?

Unfortunately, those answers are in the possible report from the arms-deal investigation and that investigation will never take place.

So, where I differ with many people is on the morality issue. I think we take morality too seriously, while it is not that important. I will choose something that works, instead of something that does not exist, but would be ideal. The law is a more practical substitute for morality. The law is there in black and white for everyone.

But corruption is very serious, someone would say and rightly so. The issue here is: Corruption in inherent in the ANC. This did not start recently. It is part of the culture. But now there is no other party with a realistic chance of winning the election, except the ANC itself at this moment. So, by way of working with what we have as a country, we choose the ANC as the governing party (even if I vote for the UCDP as an individual). We then have to go with the most popular leader of that group for president. This way things work. If we don't go with the majority choice for president, political in-fighting will never stop. The country becomes increasingly unstable and we are worse off.

My humble opinion is that we should eat humble pie (pun unintended) and realize that South Africa is not a nation of angels. This is a country of rampant crime, unemployment, great economic inequality etc. What we need is to realize that democracy is a game of deciding between disagreeing parties. We can say Zuma is not the best moral example, but he is what the majority wants. So, when we inaugurate him president, our pride is in knowing that we respect democracy.

I have a lot of things to say about Mbeki, but I don't want the post to become too long.
 
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