Is it brain drain or brain exchange?

[PeterCH]

It's amazing how basically every industry in SA, the government themselves have admitted to the MASSIVE SKILLS shortage from medical personnel to teachers, engineers etc.

1 million whites have left since 1994 (obviously a bit more considering some people don't tell the government)...there's no way on God's green earth that even half have come back.

Regarding medical personnel, I don't think there is an urban skills shortage. The government needs specialists but pays them peanuts - R400.000 pa
for a specialist is a joke. In the rural areas they need unspecialised people especially for primary health care and are using clinical nurse practitioners
and foreign doctors (from other parts of Africa) but there are not enough.
The rural allowance is like 18% and is not even pensionable, while the urban
scarce skills allowance is 15%.

A medical casualty job at NHS in the UK, generates 5600 Pounds, with a tax rate of 22% max (if registered as a PTY Co, they pay even less tax), accommodation is cheap or free and transport costs are
also paid. That's a 40 hour job, per week. Doing an extra 16 hours per week
yields and extra 450 GBP. In SA a job like that gives you: R26.000 per
month before tax.

So for the same hours, a doctor in UK doing A&E makes:
7300 GBP per month = R109.000 gross per month.
In SA he/she makes R26.000 gross per month DOING HARDER work, as in
having to see 40-60 patients per day vs the UK's 20 or so.

 

[Frankie]

This article is in the minority, but then you knew that.

Most articles and even those quoting ANC officials acknowledge the brain drain and shortage of skills.

Foreign shores lure South Africans

Rand Merchant Bank Senior Economist, Ettienne le Roux, said: "The obvious negative for any country experiencing high levels of emigration is the loss of skills and the future income these skills would have generated.

"If emigration is not matched by immigration of people of at least the same skill, the country will no doubt be worse off.

"In this regard, it is encouraging that the South African government is showing preliminary signs of making it easier for skilled foreigners to come and work in our country."

According to a recent FNB survey, emigration has been cited as the biggest single reason for selling upper-end properties.

The USA emerged as the most popular choice of destination, followed by the UK, Australia and New Zealand.

No mention of trying to retain existing skills.

Eskom expansion lacks skills, says union

Eskom's proposed tariff increase is not only due to a lack of planning but also because of a lack of human resources, trade union Solidarity said on Tuesday.

At least 346 engineers and artisans left Eskom last year, the union said.

"There is a tremendous skill shortage...72 percent of our members at Eskom are planning to leave, as they are saying Eskom is not doing enough to keep them, " said Solidarity deputy general secretary Dirk Hermann.

He was speaking on the second day of hearings by the National Energy Regulator of SA (Nersa) into Eskom's proposed 53 percent electricity tariff hike.

Solidarity said more needed to be done to develop skills to produce students that would in the end work for the power utility.

Should Eskom wish to expand it had to retain its staff.

"The current skill supply is insufficient for Eskom's skill demand; it could bring Eskom's operation and expansion to a screeching halt. Coal can only be turned into electricity by people," said Hermann.

Solidarity asked Nersa to grant a temporary increase only, pending a thorough investigation into Eskom's skills needs and the current skills supply.

In particular there is a shortage of skilled artisans, technicians, engineering personnel and pilots.

South Africa's skills issue a ‘national crisis', says Exxaro CEO Nkosi

South Africa's skills issue was a "national crisis", Exxaro CEO Sipho Nkosi, who is also president of the Chamber of Mines of South Africa, said on Thursday.

Nkosi told Mining Weekly Online in an exclusive televised interview: "It's not a one company issue, it's a country issue."

Exxaro is currently South Africa's largest coal producer and a major supplier to embattled electricity utility Eskom.

Eskom woes drive engineers to emigration

Large numbers of highly skilled South Africans, including engineers, are considering leaving the country in the wake of Eskom power debacle.

This has been confirmed by a variety of sources, including estate agents, removal companies and emigration consultants.

The people inquiring about quitting South Africa were "split across the race spectrum", and many of them were highly qualified professionals who had a potential to start a new life in another country with ease, according to Eden Joubert, a lawyer with Emigration group.

"There is no doubt that some South Africans are beginning to question their future in this country, although it is difficult to quantify the numbers involved," he said, adding that the company was receiving 50 percent more inquiries compared to the same period last year.

 

[Syndyre]

Looking at my friends: 3 engineering graduates, 2 business science graduates, 1 ICU nursing graduate, 3 medical graduates, all happily settled in the UK, Australia and USA and none are thinking of going back. All earning 4-5 times what I am earning doing less work too.

Does that mean you're thinking of going too?

Regarding medical personnel, I don't think there is an urban skills shortage. The government needs specialists but pays them peanuts - R400.000 pa
for a specialist is a joke. In the rural areas they need unspecialised people especially for primary health care and are using clinical nurse practitioners
and foreign doctors (from other parts of Africa) but there are not enough.
The rural allowance is like 18% and is not even pensionable, while the urban
scarce skills allowance is 15%.

What would the same specialist earn privately? You have to wonder how good some of these foreign, especially Cuban, doctors are.

 

[dlk001]

Yeah right.
I have been told by 3 major institutions this month alone that a white male need not bother apply.

Maybe consider engineering industry. We just short of engineers fullstop.

 

[Skinner]

Maybe it has more to do with the people involved as it seems funny that a number of WHITE foreigners, and locals returning to this country, are able to find jobs....

Agreed. The proof is in the pudding. I mean (assuming the people returning are whites), they would not return if they did not get jobs in SA, would they?

And to add: I do not know one skilled computer programmer nor engineer in SA who is without a job.

 

[PeterCH]

Does that mean you're thinking of going too?



What would the same specialist earn privately? You have to wonder how good some of these foreign, especially Cuban, doctors are.

The problem the government is referring to is not in the private sector.
Its in the state sector where they are 1. Missing people but at the same time, 2. Freezing posts. The govt. says they need trained doctors but they
freeze posts and pay lousy wages. At the same time good speciality registrar posts are heavily AA/BEE and are few and far between plus make your
chances of catching something like TB very likely.

The Foreign and Cuban doctors you refer to are mostly rural based and are
not specialists or are at least most are not doing specialist work. The problem is that you do not need Doogie Howser or House MD to sit in the periphery inserting thoracotomy tubes, or draining pericardial effusions, a basically trained doctor
can do this very well. Since in rural areas there is a terrible shortage
of doctors, even doctors you'd perceive not as good are in dire need,
after all they're not managing irritable bowel syndrome in dysthymic patients
with sweet bedside manner but real life/death stuff.

As for being good, everyone nowadays requires South African graduates to
write exams, AMC in Australia, GMC PLABs in the UK and so on, NZ wants the USMLEs although anyone willing to write the USMLE's like me would be crazy to go to NZ when you can go to the USA. The problem lies in that much of the diseases our graduates and registrars train in are 3rd world illnesses,
ie trauma and TB/HIV complications and many first world countries are
placing additional restrictions on SA graduates (even older ones).
The curriculum has also been shortened by a year with greater emphasis on
primary care, 3rd world illnesses, patient centeredness and ethics vs pathology/pathophysiology/and the learning of hard facts, students are now
encouraged to experience the way their client (was - patient) feels. When a new graduate asks you basic questions you still remember
from med school, you become a little worried, I tell you.

For private guys' fees, you could try to work it out. At my GP (Medicross) they charge R250 per consult which is 15 min long, that works out to
R8000 per day or R200K per month. However the GP does not get that,
I'm not sure how much he'll get but all the bills have to be paid out of that,
and if the GP is salaried he pays PAYE. Since they have about 4 nurses, 8 reception staff, 2-3 cleaners, 2-3 security officers on duty and 3-4 doctors
on at any one time and they need to pay a cut to Netcare/Medicross,
the credit card processing company, etc I don't think they take home too much.

GP Locum rates are R180 per hour before tax. Private specialist
locum rates are R250 per hour before tax.

As for me wanting to leave, you bet. At present family circumstances
keep me in SA but those issues are resolving, I have full GMC registration/EU citizenship and great scores in my USMLEs.

 

[Skinner]

Looking at my friends: 3 engineering graduates, 2 business science graduates, 1 ICU nursing graduate, 3 medical graduates, all happily settled in the UK, Australia and USA and none are thinking of going back. All earning 4-5 times what I am earning doing less work too.

... and missing their family & friends back in SA like hell.

 

[dlk001]

And to add: I do not know one skilled computer programmer nor engineer in SA who is without a job.

Engineers are in high demand!

 

[Skinner]

Regarding medical personnel, I don't think there is an urban skills shortage. The government needs specialists but pays them peanuts - R400.000 pa
for a specialist is a joke. In the rural areas they need unspecialised people especially for primary health care and are using clinical nurse practitioners
and foreign doctors (from other parts of Africa) but there are not enough.
The rural allowance is like 18% and is not even pensionable, while the urban
scarce skills allowance is 15%.

A medical casualty job at NHS in the UK, generates 5600 Pounds, with a tax rate of 22% max (if registered as a PTY Co, they pay even less tax), accommodation is cheap or free and transport costs are
also paid. That's a 40 hour job, per week. Doing an extra 16 hours per week
yields and extra 450 GBP. In SA a job like that gives you: R26.000 per
month before tax.

So for the same hours, a doctor in UK doing A&E makes:
7300 GBP per month = R109.000 gross per month.
In SA he/she makes R26.000 gross per month DOING HARDER work, as in
having to see 40-60 patients per day vs the UK's 20 or so.

For sure, the money overseas are better. Often way better.

But spend some time overseas, away from your family and friends, and you will learn that money becomes a much lesser consideration for leaving SA, than what you originally throught. Your full wallet is replaced with a full bag of loneliness. And it eats on you, little by little every day...

 

[Skinner]

Maybe consider engineering industry. We just short of engineers fullstop.

Yep.

I can guarantee you that you will not be told "whites don't need apply" if you are an outstanding programmer / engineer (to name just 2 examples), applying for a job in SA. Today.

 

[Skinner]

The one issue I see with this is that the majority who are leaving do so shortly after school or degree graduation. Upon their arrival within the UK for instance, they find themselves working within industries that are completely irrelevant to their studies or ambitions because they either lack in confidence or are motivated by money. I know of quite a few graduates who currently work in UK as bartenders, construction workers, tube maintenance personell etc. This isnt much of a skill increase now is it?

In fact it is not just youngsters doing this, I know of many families who have moved over and changed profession. Upon their return, what exactly are they going to bring back with them? A worldly experience is not as beneficial as actual work experience. Of course this is merely my experience having been over in the UK for some years and returning to SA (by choice - for LancelotSA)...

Not all the people leaving SA are going to UK as Working Visa.

And even for those, not all of them do "unschooled" work. Many I know actually do professional work, what they studied in SA. Physiotherapy, programming, marketing, etc. etc.

 

[PeterCH]

... and missing their family & friends back in SA like hell.

Umm no, They don't seem to miss me for example
hahahaha. I know that most of them have married locals and some have brought their aging folks over, some are thinking of starting families
which means kids who've never been to SA. When you have kids you acquire other aspirations, you want what's best for them,
and SA is definitely not one of the better places for children. Some visit SA but they also have options to travel all over the world - go to Hawaii for holidays, when you've seen Cape Town and explored all of Kruger/Drakensberg, why not go to Hawaii? The world is a big place.

 

[Syndyre]

The problem the government is referring to is not in the private sector.
Its in the state sector where they are 1. Missing people but at the same time, 2. Freezing posts. The govt. says they need trained doctors but they
freeze posts and pay lousy wages. At the same time good speciality registrar posts are heavily AA/BEE and are few and far between plus make your
chances of catching something like TB very likely.
.

I know I was just wondering how much more you could earn there because that's what the state's effectively competing against, at least in terms of those who want to stay in SA. Unless they manage to ruin the private sector with these new regulations that is.

The Foreign and Cuban doctors you refer to are mostly rural based and are
not specialists or are at least most are not doing specialist work. The problem is that you do not need Doogie Howser or House MD to sit in the periphery inserting thoracotomy tubes, or draining pericardial effusions, a basically trained doctor
can do this very well. Since in rural areas there is a terrible shortage
of doctors, even doctors you'd perceive not as good are in dire need,
after all they're not managing irritable bowel syndrome in dysthymic patients
with sweet bedside manner but real life/death stuff.

Yeah true.

Interesting anyway, thanks.

 

[devnull]

i am one of only two people i know who left and came back. i came back because of homesickness and realised it was a huge mistake. both of us want to leave again. the other point i have is that i know no one (out of at least 11 people/families) who officially emmigrated. everyone just left. most had dual citizenship

 

[Skinner]

Umm no, They don't seem to miss me for example
hahahaha. I know that most of them have married locals and some have brought their aging folks over, some are thinking of starting families
which means kids who've never been to SA. When you have kids you acquire other aspirations, you want what's best for them,
and SA is definitely not one of the better places for children. Some visit SA but they also have options to travel all over the world - go to Hawaii for holidays, when you've seen Cape Town and explored all of Kruger/Drakensberg, why not go to Hawaii? The world is a big place.

Hawaii is overrated

 

[PeterCH]

I know I was just wondering how much more you could earn there because that's what the state's effectively competing against, at least in terms of those who want to stay in SA. Unless they manage to ruin the private sector with these new regulations that is.



Yeah true.

Interesting anyway, thanks.

Of my Uni friends, most have left SA. I know of a handful who are still in
SA. IMHO the market for doctors, even in private practice in SA is a little
oversaturated. I get that vibe that's all. For example, Groote Schuur, trains 2 cardiologists every 4 years, however that seems enough. To get one of those posts after doing medicine for 4 years (medical registrar) is very difficult
especially as those are also government BEE posts.

 

[Syndyre]

Of my Uni friends, most have left SA. I know of a handful who are still in
SA. IMHO the market for doctors, even in private practice in SA is a little
oversaturated. I get that vibe that's all. For example, Groote Schuur, trains 2 cardiologists every 4 years, however that seems enough. To get one of those posts after doing medicine for 4 years (medical registrar) is very difficult
especially as those are also government BEE posts.

That seems to be a common trend in quite a few professions. The medical professions seem to be more over regulated than most though, with community service and everything else.

 

[Skinner]

i am one of only two people i know who left and came back. i came back because of homesickness and realised it was a huge mistake. both of us want to leave again. the other point i have is that i know no one (out of at least 11 people/families) who officially emmigrated. everyone just left. most had dual citizenship

And when you are back overseas again, you get homesick again?

Don't let the quick "return" / "visit" to SA fool you, all it does is get rid of your homesickness for while you are there and a few months when you are back overseas again, then it returns again with a bang.

No, as I see it, some other plan needs to be made by people like you and me:

1) Don't leave SA so FAR away, i.e. live where you can quickly return to SA for holiday every 3/6 months. Unfortunately SA is far away from everything, but work in places like Mauritius, Namibia, Perth, etc. is possible.

2) When you return overseas, persuade some best friends to join you!

3) Find employment where you work 6 months a year in SA, 6 months overseas. Not ideal for people with wife & kids, but still a possibility.

4) It is difficult to make friends overseas. So you really need to go to a place where you already know some people that can help you make friends, or you must go to a place where it is easier to make friends to begin with. In this regard, Europe is absolutely out of the question.

 

[Skinner]

The clever people are the quickest to realise where this country is going. They also realise their self-worth and tend to consider their options more readily. The rest are just over-optimistic, the glass is half-full people.

And if you are really clever, and with some lucky circumstances, you can still make a very nice life for yourself in SA, with low crime risk, good money, low living costs, friends, family, all you will get and won't get overseas (with the exception of the first two).

In a nutshell, how to live a good life in SA:
1) Career: be in the right industry: engineering, IT, medical, etc.
2) Residential: Western Cape still FTW.
3) Stay as much as possible out of debt. Interest rates are rising.
4) Enjoy life. Live close to the beach. Enjoy your friends and family.
5) Kids: put them in a good school and send them to a good university.

Quite simple, really.

The situation may change after a few years, making 1-5 above more difficult, but what prevents you from leaving then and not now? Your age maybe, but you will have more career experience then, so your entry into the overseas job market will be even easier than what it would be now.

 

[Alan]

And when you are back overseas again, you get homesick again?

Don't let the quick "return" / "visit" to SA fool you, all it does is get rid of your homesickness for while you are there and a few months when you are back overseas again, then it returns again with a bang.

My sister was determined to come back but I warned her. Within a month or two of being back she'd made up her mind to return to the U.K. Couldn't believe how far this place had gone down the toilet in 2 years. I guess we don't notice as much with a gradual decline as every day passes . Anyway she's been in the U.K for 18 months now and has not mentioned moving back again.