It is illegal AFAIK. But even if they follow procedure the results would likely be the same.
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Is it brain drain or brain exchange?
- Thread starter LancelotSA
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It is illegal AFAIK. But even if they follow procedure the results would likely be the same.
Strange, cause in CPT (where the IT market is known to be weaker than JHB), I was flooded with invitations for interviews for programming positions, not just from agencies but also through contacts. And none of those had "AA candidates only" criteria.
These varied from small startup companies up to the big ones like Vodacom, Sanlam and DiData.
edit to add: this was January 2008.
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What level positions are you talking about as I think Moederloos is talking about senior positions.
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Moederloos
Honorary Master
Be that as it may, it happens. And this is not some small company - it is a major listed company. The Human Resources procedures even have it listed that no white males will be employed.
dlk001
Executive Member
Big companies do not necessary have good HR practices. My ex director at CSIR was a regular at the CCMA. He lost all the cases. HR managers and management get away with many illegal company policies.
When I worked for a Big company, I and my friends took them to task when it came to discrimination irrespective of what their policy said.
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I'm referring to senior programming & IT Product Management positions.
So, Moederloos, to be clear, you claim:
1) 4x in 1 month, 4 different companies told you not to even bother applying for senior IT programming positions, because of AA?
2) Your wife works at a major JSE listed company, and HR policy is not to allow any white applications for senior IT programming positions?
If you can confirm the above, I have some further questions (don't worry I won't ask for company names).
As I said, my experience in CPT in January 2008 was totally the opposite. And I'm white, by the way
(just for arguments' sake)
So, Moederloos, to be clear, you claim:
1) 4x in 1 month, 4 different companies told you not to even bother applying for senior IT programming positions, because of AA?
2) Your wife works at a major JSE listed company, and HR policy is not to allow any white applications for senior IT programming positions?
If you can confirm the above, I have some further questions (don't worry I won't ask for company names).
As I said, my experience in CPT in January 2008 was totally the opposite. And I'm white, by the way
(just for arguments' sake)Moederloos
Honorary Master
I'm referring to senior programming & IT Product Management positions.
So, Moederloos, to be clear, you claim:
1) 4x in 1 month, 4 different companies told you not to even bother applying for senior IT programming positions, because of AA?
2) Your wife works at a major JSE listed company, and HR policy is not to allow any white applications for senior IT programming positions?
If you can confirm the above, I have some further questions (don't worry I won't ask for company names).
As I said, my experience in CPT in January 2008 was totally the opposite. And I'm white, by the way
You will need to take me on my word, really. How can I possibly confirm without more (personal) details?
I believe you, but I think we should look into more detail i.e. what type of programming, what is the main product(s) of the company, where in SA this is, how many employees, of those how many programmers, etc. etc. in order to find an explanation for this.
Taking the above guidelines into account, can you tell us more about those 4x AA positions you were refused, and the AA positions at your wife's company?
What would also be interesting, is what percentage the 4x refused positions you were interested in, were of the total positions you were interested in?
E.g. you applied for 4, you were refused for 4, or you applied for more?
Moederloos
Honorary Master
Let's stick to me for now. I am a system analyst in short. Also do a lot of DB and programming stuff - to keep it short.
Been told many times by recruiters "we wont send your CV to XYZ because they are not hiring whites, but we will send to ABC since we can get you in there on contract" and so on.
I have directly approached some major companies - places where I have friends -either in HR roles, or in senior roles where they can "refer" me to HR, and have been told "don't bother". In many of those cases it is stipulated in the HR processes that "white males" are excluded from being hired - as opposed to the person merely making those claims from an unfounded assumption.
As for the recruiters? We all know they will send anyone anywhere - they are nothing more than pimps. And if they do not bother, there has got to be truth in there. It is not even that they are using it as an excuse, rather than telling me "you are not suitable for that", because I have gone to interviews that had nothing to do with what I do...
dlk001
Executive Member
That's HR for you. Its not just job application, its bursaries, vacation work etc. For me, I learned to live with those "We regret" letters from a young age. At least, they had decency to write back versus todays companies that tell you upfront they won't necessary respond.
Ah, but here is the major issue (and possible reason for the many cases where you were rejected for AA reasons).
What sort of system analyst are you?
Moederloos
Honorary Master
I think you are worrying too much about specifics. The one company has a blanket-ban on all white males - regardless of position. Worrying about the specifics of what area of system analysis I am involved in is immaterial.
bsntombela
Well-Known Member
Seems to me that most of you already assume that these "candidates" of brain drain are all white, why else would u say they're victims of BEE. Blacks are leaving as well and believe its not utterly because of crime, but some people out there seek spiritual and cultural change
For sure, I realise that. For one company. And the other 4?
In other words, how can you be sure that they would refuse you, even if your role was something crucial to their business, like a programmer (for instance), for which they would not care if you were AA or not, just desperate to get you to take the job?
dlk001
Executive Member
Like most Engineering jobs. Companies just desperate these days!
Having been in the job market recently, I actually found few companies that specified AA-only, and it wasn't terribly hard to get interviews at all. This experience has been mirrored by a whole bunch of ex-colleagues too. If you have the right qualifications, there'll be a company that wants you.
My point exactly with this whole argument.
dlk001
Executive Member
True. Its about the right skills and attitude. I have not seen a single company in my field specifying AA only.
alloytoo
Honorary Master
Umm no, They don't seem to miss me for example
hahahaha. I know that most of them have married locals and some have brought their aging folks over, some are thinking of starting families
which means kids who've never been to SA. When you have kids you acquire other aspirations, you want what's best for them,
and SA is definitely not one of the better places for children. Some visit SA but they also have options to travel all over the world - go to Hawaii for holidays, when you've seen Cape Town and explored all of Kruger/Drakensberg, why not go to Hawaii? The world is a big place.
This is not neccessarily about employment issues, but as you point out, about quality of life.
Crime and general lawlessness have contributed to my friends (who were gainfully employed) Leaving.
80% of my high school and college group of friends have left citing the crime problem and AA/EE as the main reason for their choice. They now in countries USA, NZ, AUZ and UK - none of them are considering a return to SA.
The remaining 20% of my group of friends and myself included are also making preperations to leave - emigating comes at a high emotional and economic cost, so the decision is not taken lightly.