Is online piracy theft?

Is online piracy theft?
We need a sticky of this kind of thread. Just as tiresome to repeat oneself after having had thousands of "is piracy theft?"... like trying to having reasonable discussion about god's existence or creationism VS evolution.
 
If you go back in the thread history you will see that I mention live shows also they get money from radio spots, YouTube ads on so on. Its not like selling mp3s ate their only means of income.

sure, but promotion is the problem here. most [musical] artists are more concerned with their work than with the promotion thereof.
most film artists can't get a break without some kind of promoter with connections, experience and funding behind their film.
if artists aren't going to fill the promotion gap, who will and how does that happen?
 
sure, but promotion is the problem here. most [musical] artists are more concerned with their work than with the promotion thereof.
most film artists can't get a break without some kind of promoter with connections, experience and funding behind their film.
if artists aren't going to fill the promotion gap, who will and how does that happen?

If the music doesn't go "Viral" on its own then it should not be "viral" in the 1st place, and I put my music taste where my mouth is.

/points to his Goth+Industrial collection.

90%+ of the bands I own is because I saw them live or listened to a friends collection and not because of some crappy radio killing the artist till your ears bleed. So in my view EMI and Sony did f all to introduce those bands to me so should not get paid for it either.
 
If the music doesn't go "Viral" on its own then it should not be "viral" in the 1st place, and I put my music taste where my mouth is.

/points to his Goth+Industrial collection.

90%+ of the bands I own is because I saw them live or listened to a friends collection and not because of some crappy radio killing the artist till your ears bleed. So in my view EMI and Sony did f all to introduce those bands to me so should not get paid for it either.

yeah. ultimately i agree with this. the cheese has moved and labels can either get with it of gtfo.
i watched "steal this film" 1 & 2 a while back and really enjoyed it.
it's an interesting point in history.
at the end of the day, i pretty much agree with droid on this. if you like it, buy it.
however, in this day and age, if the producer/artist doesn't make a demo, they can't complain if somebody pirates it to try it out.
it's difficult, because i also appreciate that the economics of supply, demand and self-promotion aren't always directly reciprocal.
neil gaimans' vid on copyright has some truth in it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qkyt1wXNlI
 
neil gaimans' vid on copyright has some truth in it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qkyt1wXNlI

Looove that mans work. I own the entire Sandman series + Black Orchard and Death of Death series. Sandman in both softcover and E format, the others in just softcover, all this because I borrowed 3 of the graphic novels from a friend(Well ex-fiancée) back in the early 90's.

And again not because of some company marketing them.
 
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send prophet a pm. maybe he can help you out.

I don't deal well with people who condone art vandalism. It will be ignored.

The piracy debate is moot. Rather talk about god with DouwDouw/RZA, will be more fruitful.
 
We need a sticky of this kind of thread. Just as tiresome to repeat oneself after having had thousands of "is piracy theft?"... like trying to having reasonable discussion about god's existence or creationism VS evolution.

+1
 
[)roi(], capitalism and socialism are both economic systems built around allocating limited resources. All the other points listed about it by Wikipedia are the ways and means we go about doing that. And because you're forcing everything into a two-system world, left v right, capitalism v socialism, you're missing that piracy has nothing to do with either of those economic systems.

So as an example, in the world we currently have limited food available and difficulty distributing it:
  • Capitalism says that those who want it the most and are prepared to pay the most will get access to it.
  • Communism says that some bureaucrat will decide who gets what food and when.
  • Socialism takes some of the food from rich people and gives it to poor people.
  • Piracy doesn't have a limited resource that it's working with, so everyone can get as much food as they want. You can all eat like kings.
There has never been an analogy to piracy in the physical world. There has never been a major idealogical war where a third side stood up and said "gosh guys, I see you both fighting over that piece of land, you know we could just duplicate it and you would both have a copy".

The danger we have with piracy is that if everyone just keeps copying all the old content that already exists, and no one pays for new stuff, what incentive is there for new stuff to be made. Using the food analogy, why would anyone go and create a fantastic new delicious dish if he never gets any compensation for the time that he spent originally creating it. We want to solve world hunger, but we still want people to create new stuff, and that's what copyright was originally built to do.... give them a very limited temporary monopoly so they could sell their new stuff for a bit, but it would quickly return to be freely distributed afterwards.

Not because they "own" the idea or content, but we temporarily put restrictions on other people duplicating them to allow them to make money and encourage the creation of new ideas. This is my problem with calling it theft, calling it theft pre-assumes total ownership of ideas, whereas piracy is not following the incentive system.

If you want to claim that there is absolutely ownership on ideas and content itself, then there's all kinds of questions as to why copyright should ever expire, the whole remixing question, Disney using old stories without paying the great-great-great-grandchildren of the original authors, if someone tells you a secret and you then tell someone else... is that theft because you don't have permission from the original "content holder". Ugh.
I won't argue word choice...

The fact that you indirectly imply it's an illegal activity is enough for me to agree with you. WRT the patent system; I agree it's working counter to its original precepts; yet if it was that easy to replace I believe it would have been.

In the absence of a perfect society; I don't agree that we should all revert to anarchy, and that is what piracy / "copying" in essence is. As you implied; if we were all to revert to anarchy the system would falter (which benefits no-one), and hence those that do should be held accountable.
 
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I know I'm late here and I skipped a few pages but this is a question directed at roi:

If you feel it's theft to make a copy of a movie instead of buying it, doesn't that make Multichoice the country's biggest right hand man allowing it?

Reason I ask this is because if you buy a pvr and recorded a movie, you're denying the maker the revenue by not buying it, so you're saying everyone using a pvr is a criminal and Multichoice should be taken to task?
I'm sure if you look into Multichoice; you will find that all their services are provided in accordance with financial agreements reached with the media houses. Clearly there is a revenue stream; from you --> Multichoice --> Media houses --> Content Creators. This doesn't occur for example with P2P / torrents. i.e. revenue stream stops short; from you --> ISP (and that's where it ends, i.e. no tie back with media houses or content creators)
 
Piracy Summary (Pros and Cons)

People Most likely to Pirate:
  • Males than Females
  • Younger students more than older students
  • Common in offices and all ranks alike
Arguments for Software Piracy?
  • Prices are too high!
  • Information should be free
  • Prevents technological advancement in poor countries
  • Using it as a “test”
  • Some companies don’t take action, so why should I care?
Ethical Arguments against Piracy
  • If it is OK for a program, then...
  • Would you pay the money back to the publisher?
  • Most Software companies offer demos free of charge
  • If you like it, hard working people should be paid
  • You can’t download it and criticize it
Economical Arguments Against Piracy
  • Less money, less development
  • It also means that customers face higher prices Effects market studies by companies
  • Decreasing Piracy by 10% adds 2.4 m jobs
  • More piracy means less investment
Conclusion
  • Software Piracy is illegal and takes many forms
  • Arguments for Software Piracy: price, testing, freedom
  • Ethical arguments against: theft, injustice, criticism
  • Economical arguments against: development, money & jobs lost, investment
Reference: http://faculty.kfupm.edu.sa/coe/aim...cal_Arguments_against_Software_Piracy_072.pdf

The same arguments IMO apply to music, videos, ...
 
[)roi(];8283933 said:
I won't won't argue word choice...

The fact that you indirectly imply it's an illegal activity is enough for me to agree with you. WRT the patent system; I agree it's working counter to its original precepts; yet if it was that easy to replace I believe it would have been.

In the absence of a perfect society; I don't agree that we should all revert to anarchy, and that is what piracy / "copying" in essence is. As you implied; if we were all to revert to anarchy the system would falter (which benefits no-one), and hence those that do should be held accountable.

Oh I'll fully accept that piracy is an illegal activity just like theft, arson or jaywalking. The whole point of this article was about word choice though, and that piracy and theft are two distinct concepts. Not the much broader topic of "is piracy morally right or wrong".

If we keep mashing the two concepts together though it becomes much harder to treat it with the nuance it deserves. Current nuances in the law like copyright expiration, fair use, and exemption of some items from copyright, would make no sense under the view that duplicating content is the same as the theft of a physical good.

Two distinct issues are covered by the laws that govern copyright:"we need to ensure people are encouraged to create goods" and the laws that govern theft:"we need to ensure that people can't remove their own goods from them".
 
Oh I'll fully accept that piracy is an illegal activity just like theft, arson or jaywalking. The whole point of this article was about word choice though, and that piracy and theft are two distinct concepts. Not the much broader topic of "is piracy morally right or wrong".

If we keep mashing the two concepts together though it becomes much harder to treat it with the nuance it deserves. Current nuances in the law like copyright expiration, fair use, and exemption of some items from copyright, would make no sense under the view that duplicating content is the same as the theft of a physical good.

Two distinct issues are covered by the laws that govern copyright:"we need to ensure people are encouraged to create goods" and the laws that govern theft:"we need to ensure that people can't remove their own goods from them".
Agreed. Well said.
 
I think the whole problem came with the Civil vs Criminal law

Theft is criminal and punishable almost everywhere by criminal record + jail sentencing.
Copyright infringement is civil and punishable almost everywhere by imposing fines with no criminal record.

I think the whole stuff up came back and bit em in the ass.

Reasons for them doing it could have been plenty fold.
They wanted harsher punishments, maybe even criminal records.
Transfer costs to the government (Civil cases the person laying the charge needs to cover policing costs)
Make the crime seem more serious, scared people will laugh it off like a parking ticket.
 
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I think the whole problem came with the Civil vs Criminal law

Theft is criminal and punishable almost everywhere by criminal record + jail sentencing.
Copyright infringement is civil and punishable almost everywhere by imposing fines with no criminal record.

I think the whole stuff up came back and bit em in the ass.

Reasons for them doing it could have been plenty fold.
They wanted harsher punishments, maybe even criminal records.
Transfer costs to the government (Civil cases the person laying the charge needs to cover policing costs)
Make the crime seem more serious, scared people will laugh it off like a parking ticket.
I agree.

The best approach for the media industry I still believe is not to fight the situation with lawsuits, ... but rather to open up the sector to such a degree that buying legal is almost easier than pirating.

I.e. if you make it so open that people just find it easier to be legal; they'll happily pay a fair price for better quality.

http://www.futurity.org/society-culture/music-piracy-restrictions-don’t-work/
Steve Jobs said it best: ‘Why would the big four music companies agree to let Apple and others distribute their music without using DRM systems to protect it? The simplest answer is because DRMs haven’t worked, and may never work, to halt music piracy
iTunes has already proven that this model works; yet the media industry still does not follow what seems to be the logical conclusion and open it all up, everywhere :rolleyes:

I just read an article (with Neil Young) that equates torrents, ... as the new Radio i.e. that it's the way we discover new music. Never thought of that analogy, kind of makes sense.
It doesn't affect me because I look at the internet as the new radio. I look at the radio as gone. [...] Piracy is the new radio. That's how music gets around. [...] That's the radio. If you really want to hear it, let's make it available, let them hear it, let them hear the 95 percent of it.
http://www.theverge.com/2012/1/31/2761597/neil-young-music-steve-jobs-piracy-is-the-new-radio
 
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so its ok and not piracy if i use software for evaluation purposes ....until the next version comes out that is :D
 
so its ok and not piracy if i use software for evaluation purposes ....until the next version comes out that is :D
Nice try :p

The analogy was used for music (which I think applies). Yet for the remainder of media; it's not so easy.

For example:
  • Music -- you typically listen to music more than once. Hence we have itunes / amazon previews, no DRM mp3 / mp4, radio, youtube videos, vimeo, tv music shows, ...
  • Movies -- once is usually enough for most. Hence we only have limited previews available, and also why media companies are so much more restrictive about accessibility.
  • Software -- similar to music, it's typically something you need more than once. Hence we have trialware, demoware, adware, ..
 
[)roi(];8284025 said:
People Most likely to Pirate:
  • Males than Females
  • Younger students more than older students
  • Common in offices and all ranks alike
Arguments for Software Piracy?
  • Prices are too high!
  • Information should be free
  • Prevents technological advancement in poor countries
  • Using it as a “test”
  • Some companies don’t take action, so why should I care?
Ethical Arguments against Piracy
  • If it is OK for a program, then...
  • Would you pay the money back to the publisher?
  • Most Software companies offer demos free of charge
  • If you like it, hard working people should be paid
  • You can’t download it and criticize it
Economical Arguments Against Piracy
  • Less money, less development
  • It also means that customers face higher prices Effects market studies by companies
  • Decreasing Piracy by 10% adds 2.4 m jobs
  • More piracy means less investment
Conclusion
  • Software Piracy is illegal and takes many forms
  • Arguments for Software Piracy: price, testing, freedom
  • Ethical arguments against: theft, injustice, criticism
  • Economical arguments against: development, money & jobs lost, investment
Reference: http://faculty.kfupm.edu.sa/coe/aim...cal_Arguments_against_Software_Piracy_072.pdf

The same arguments IMO apply to music, videos, ...

That makes me wanna go download something....
 
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