Is online piracy theft?

[murraybiscuit]

Here are some considerations

Device lock
I buy music, I immediately download the "illegal" mp3 version. Why? Because the illegal MP3 version lets me play my songs in the car, on an ipod, on my andriod tablet, on my phone. Last time I bought a CD, I didnt even open the case and use the CD.

it's impossible to buy digital video outside of the us/eu/aus without doing it illegally.
until such a day occurs, the above solution is the only one i can see which is fair for both parties.
artist gets remunerated, buyer gets to experience it on whatever platform they want.

ffs media companies, i'm trying to give you money here, what's your problem?

 

[Drunkard #1]

Capitalism is a fantastic system for its intended purpose of prioritising the usage of limited resources.

Prime land is a limited resource (one person is farming something on it, another one cannot).
Doctors are a limited resource (better doctors command higher rates and if you really want the best treatment, you pay more for it and so we try to optimise their use).
Electricity is a limited resource (it takes peoples time to dig coal out and build power plants, so you have to decide if switching on that heater in the winter is worth making all those people work for you).

An electronic copy of Photoshop on the other hand is not a limited resource. There is no scarcity where if one person uses a copy, another person would have to do without. Your copy of Photoshop does not become worse as more people use it.

There is a limited resource attached to the original creation of a product such as Photoshop (the time of the team who developed it), and we certainly need to incentivise people to make products such as that, but once it's made we should be taking advantage of the benefits that come from this.

If an author makes the best Maths textbook that over its lifetime makes R10 million but only touches the lives of 100 000 students, we should be happier to live in a world where he still makes his R10 million, but we duplicate that textbook to millions of students. He loses nothing, but millions have benefited. That's not something we can do with land, doctors, or electricity, but it's something we sure can do with intellectual property and it's a goal I believe we should strive towards.

So to me the moral position on piracy is never about the actual distribution of the product. Doesn't matter if one person or a million have a copy of it. It's about making sure that people are encouraged to continue making great products via throwing money at them. We only have limited money ourselves so don't go and buy a piece of software or music where you don't know if you'll like it and end up encouraging the wrong thing, and never end up giving other software or music a chance because you already spent that cash. Pirate it first, decide if you like it, and then with a fully informed opinion of good and bad media out there, throw your money at the good stuff.

To come back to a gaming example, League of Legends is a free-to-play online game that makes its money when players buy cosmetic items in game. I feel that it's morally better to give money to a game like that that I've enjoyed, than to give money to a game that I may have pirated in the past but wasn't good.

You are entirely right, however...

Many have tried to use logic on idiots. All have failed. Don't waste your time.

Idiot test: Arguing about a simple legal definition (the thread title), after two lawyers (one with a PhD) have said that there is no argument.

 

[DJ...]

The moment ones and zeros became commoditised was the moment that it became as tangible as any other product on the market.

That being said, lending my neighbour my speaker is hardly worth shouting over and happens amongst a range of products on a daily basis. Copying the entire speaker design, building it and then giving it to my neighbour while breaching a host of laws in the process is also overlooked for the most part, until I attempt to sell said speaker.

Because of my music I used to vehemently defend the right of the artist and record label to own and control the distribution channels, but in thinking about it over the years it really isn't a situation that requires legislation and penalties but rather one that needs to be embraced. For every pirate out there, there is an equally responsible content owner...

 

[themba990]

Online piracy is theft. But if you can steal with so little effort and impunity it's a difficult to resist. Your moral compass needs to be a little out of calibration.

 

[Drunkard #1]

The moment ones and zeros became commoditised was the moment that it became as tangible as any other product on the market.

That being said, lending my neighbour my speaker is hardly worth shouting over and happens amongst a range of products on a daily basis. Copying the entire speaker design, building it and then giving it to my neighbour while breaching a host of laws in the process is also overlooked for the most part, until I attempt to sell said speaker.

Because of my music I used to vehemently defend the right of the artist and record label to own and control the distribution channels, but in thinking about it over the years it really isn't a situation that requires legislation and penalties but rather one that needs to be embraced. For every pirate out there, there is an equally responsible content owner...

The ones and zeros may be tangible, but the goods they form are as intangible as ever. Once those ones and zeros are piled together in a heap, they lose all value - their value exists solely in their arrangement. Music is therefore still intangible, and still subject to the principles mentioned by km2, and myself (in another thread.) Any attempt to infer that intangible goods require and deserve the protections afforded to tangible goods is always going to be shot down by everyone from commune hippies to philosophy professors, and rightly so.

We don't need laws that confuse the two types of goods, we need laws that are designed from the start to embrace the reality of near-zero-cost copying and benefits it imparts on society, while at the same time encouraging new development and innovation. The current intellectual "property" suite of laws and treaties doesn't do that, and until it's redesigned, no-one is going to respect it.

 

[DJ...]

The moment that said ones and zeros are ring-fenced as a commodity is when they should be treated as any other product on the market. Yes, they maintain an element of intangibility, however that is no excuse for not treating them the same.

I must point out, I haven't read the posts you are referring to...

 

[LazyLion]

Who are the real pirates? Greedy Content Distributors and Retailers who create a false demand for a product by driving up prices to insane levels.
Pricing should closely match what the content producer feels is fair to license or view his work.

De-restricting and Downloading those works is a form of legitimate protest against this practice.

The only way to combat piracy is through pricing and distribution. Nothing else will kill it.

 

[pjjdp]

Hey, wait a minute, my popcorn is finish, let me deprive my wife of her next box of popcorn. Or wait, is it theft? I took away her potential future enjoyment.

Har Har Har

 

[SaiyanZ]

Someone gave me a pirate copy of Oblivion which got me interested in the Elder Scrolls games. So I ended up purchasing Skyrim on release day. Also had a pirate copy of Mass Effect. Ended up purchasing all the Mass Effect 1/2/3 games as well as Dragon Age (same developer). Same story with Batman, Arkham Asylum and Arkham City.

I don't think I would've bought all those games if I first didn't get hooked on the series with a pirate copy.

 

[Tns]

sadly copying music online without the artist permission nor paying for is theft, copying a cd to mp3 for your own use is fair use.
copying isn't stealing the origional true, but you now have something you obtained without permission from the creator of it.


i don't like it either but it is the truth which ever way you want to slice it. you are using something that someone else created without their permission(music in this case).

 

[Boksie]

i don't like it either but it is the truth which ever way you want to slice it. you are using something that someone else created without their permission(music in this case).

Erm, I suppose I should just turn my radio off then, I'm listening to all those songs being played without the artist having given permission or me owning a copy...

 

[Drunkard #1]

The moment that said ones and zeros are ring-fenced as a commodity is when they should be treated as any other product on the market. Yes, they maintain an element of intangibility, however that is no excuse for not treating them the same.

I must point out, I haven't read the posts you are referring to...

The fact that it's intangible is exactly the reason it should be, and is, treated differently. Here's my post on the matter. Read km2's as well.

Tangible property is always a zero sum game - I gain, you lose. Intangible property isn't - I gain, you don't lose. So the net effect is a gain. The discussion is about appropriating that gain. Your argument about treating the two equally has been shot down by scholars for thousands of years, and nothings changed just because of digital.

No.

Intellectual "property" has no moral grounds for protection. Society benefits whenever one persons work is used, for free, by many. Anything that I can use with no net cost to society (ie: no cost to me and no loss to anyone else) is an advancement. Your energy has already been spent; If I was to waste my time repeating your efforts, the effect is a net loss to society because my time could have been more productively spent. This is generally accepted as fact.

Intellectual "property" legislation is about creating incentives. It protects your work so that you have an incentive to create it in the first place. It is an entirely artificial system, with no moral or altruistic basis. As such, it is open to debate. How much incentive is needed? What form should it take? Who decides on value? But most importantly, society must still come out ahead. So, having said that, in my opinion, it's just a matter of talking price, and as far as I'm concerned, intellectual "property" is overpriced. The net effect on society is negative, because current laws stifle innovation and impose unnecessary and unfair costs on later inventions.

So it's a protest. We don't like the legislation as it stands - Brands and trademarks are used solely for corporate gain, with no benefit to the consumer; Copyright is excessively long and stifles fair use and advancement of the arts it purports to protect; Patents are trolled for all they're worth, ignoring the principles of prior art and novelty, resulting in a net loss to society. We pirate because we don't buy politicians in order to alter the law for our benefit, like corporations do, our actions draw attention to the gross inequity of the current situation, and force changes.

So don't even try to tell me I'm acting immorally. If legislation was fairly drafted, piracy wouldn't even be a blip. Not even a tiny speck. And society would be better off for it.

 

[LazyLion]

sadly copying music online without the artist permission nor paying for is theft, copying a cd to mp3 for your own use is fair use.

Actually, I think you will find it is "copyright infringement" ... or did you not read the article?

 

[Tns]

Erm, I suppose I should just turn my radio off then, I'm listening to all those songs being played without the artist having given permission or me owning a copy...

thats being silly, the radio has the artist permission to play it and you are listening to it (listening falls into the fair play category )

 

[kolaval]

Steam rules, awesome content, no need for piracy +1
Why is there no Hulu/netflix option (without hacking it) in SA?

[video=youtube;ALZZx1xmAzg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZZx1xmAzg[/video]

 

[kolaval]

Someone gave me a pirate copy of Oblivion which got me interested in the Elder Scrolls games. So I ended up purchasing Skyrim on release day. Also had a pirate copy of Mass Effect. Ended up purchasing all the Mass Effect 1/2/3 games as well as Dragon Age (same developer). Same story with Batman, Arkham Asylum and Arkham City.

I don't think I would've bought all those games if I first didn't get hooked on the series with a pirate copy.

Same here, I consider it 'try-before-I-buy', but that's just me.
Mass effect 2+3
Borderlands
NOT skyrim - didn't play it for more than an hour - nothing has changed since morrowind
Next up: sniper elite v2

 

[kolaval]

Hey, wait a minute, my popcorn is finish, let me deprive my wife of her next box of popcorn. Or wait, is it theft? I took away her potential future enjoyment.

Har Har Har

Yes, cause if you did that with me in the cinema you'll pay a price...

 

[Tns]

Hey, wait a minute, my popcorn is finish, let me deprive my wife of her next box of popcorn. Or wait, is it theft? I took away her potential future enjoyment.

no that will not be theft since you are married it would be considered communal property between man&wife. although you wi;; be hearing about it for a long time.....

 

[Rinkhals]

Schonwetter did however point out that an argument can be made that while the owner is not deprived of ownership, he or she is deprived of the benefits of ownership; i.e. the financial exploitation of the material. “This is why the result is very similar to theft,” said Schonwetter.

That might work if you could show a direct correlation of piracy to sales lost, but it's a fallacy to say that each pirated copy represents a sale lost.

Moreover, revenue lost from pirated copies is partially offset by additional sales generated from more exposure.

Indeed, the supposed lost revenue may be entirely covered or even exceeded by the additional sales generated in some cases.

 

[Tns]

Moreover, revenue lost from pirated copies is partially offset by additional sales generated from more exposure.

Indeed, the supposed lost revenue may be entirely covered or even exceeded by the additional sales generated in some cases.

so in twisted kinda way piracy does help. if someone gets a pirate copy likes and then buys the high quality version.....