LCD and Plasma Bargains

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Lupus said:
some of the newer higher end brands have really great engines that actually do a pretty good job of deinterlacing, noise reduction upscaling that even a 540i image will look impressive in comparison to older TVs ... If your TV's engine is subpar then you will not see what you are seeing now
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OK so then what is subpar? My first hand experience tells me a entry-level 2010 model is up to par (cannot distinguish 1080i vs 1080p). Maybe TVs from 2009 or older, the question is how relevant is this for new purchasers going forward?

Lupus said:
In regards to resolution though 1080i is inferior to 1080p and in some circumstances 720p due to the amount of pixels actually displayed and the fact that it is interlaced, which can leave a grainy image ... The fact that it is also technically limited to 25hz to 30hz due to it's interlacing will cause issues with fast motion, sometimes judder and various other issues.
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You're just not grasping the concept that the input signal and what is actually display are not the same thing, both from a resolution & framerate perspective.

Anyway rather than continuing to speculate, go try it for yourself. Record HD movie of choice on your HDPVR (prefereable action with lots of movement), then go rent the Bluray disc and play back both simultaneously on a 50Hz FHD TV, flipping between the two inputs.

To ensure the pictures are absolutely identical, make sure the TV is in 1:1 pixel mapping mode (zero overscan), HDPVR is outputing in 1080i, and that the Bluray player is outputing 1080p in pan&scan mode (crop left/right edge so picture fills to top/bottom of screen, matching DSTV's output).

My expereince tells me you wont be able to see the difference (except that one will have a M logo in the corner).
 
Of course you won't be able to tell the difference, your upscaler is taking care of that for you, and sub-par means most entry level TV's which don't have the following names LG, Samsung, Sony, Panasonic etc... If you compared these too a 2011 Sinotec or Logik you'd see the differences.
 
Lupus said:
Of course you won't be able to tell the difference, your upscaler is taking care of that for you
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Scaling & de-interlacing are different processes, with de-interlacing being the more accurate of the two.

Anyway this bring it back full circle to where it started ...

Roman4604 said:
Almost all HDTV broadcasting around the world uses the 1080i standard these days (incl our own MC), and there would be little incentive for them to move to 1080p. With 1080p broadcasters would incur double the bandwidth penality (per ch) with virtually no benefit to the end user.

The de-interlacing circuitry/routines (1080i -> 1080p) in modern TVs have reached a level of competence where the difference in PQ even with motion between 1080i & 1080p are virtually indistinguishable.
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Lupus said:
If you compared these too a 2011 Sinotec or Logik you'd see the differences.
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Thats the reason why you should invest in a name brand set, not because of the quaility variance of the panel, but rather that of the engine (signal processor & algorithms used).
 
I'm loving my d450.... What settings should I use to get the best out of it ?
 
Necrite said:
How do you guys feel about Panasonic/Toshiba/Phillips sets?
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I know the Panasonic plasmas are one of the best out there, Toshiba supplies screens to other brand tv sets and Philips are not really worth it, these days Philips are more of a budget brand tv.
 
Which to choose?

Currently, looking for something 46 inch to 51 inch. Have found some great prices, but each has a different technology and cons/pros.

LG 47LK530 (Around R7000) : This model is FULL HD, but lacks 3D and is only LCD based.
Samsung UA46D5000 (around R10 000) : This model is LED, 3D and FULL HD. The only thing is, is that it seems like I'm paying an extra R3000 for LED/3D over LCD? Is a R3k difference worth it?
LG 47LW4500 (R11000) : Same as Samsung, but 1 inch bigger ;) and includes 9 3D glasses, but R1k more expensive.

Samsung PS51D450 (around R6000) - HD Ready, Plasma, 3D. Heard great things about Plasma, but I lose out on FULL HD and I DO have full HD movies/bluerays. However, at this price, it seems amazing.
Samsung PS51D550 (around R9500) - Full HD, Plasma, 3D. Would be the obvious choice, but have heard frightening things about the reflections on this model.

So between all the above, what will give the best quality and the most reasonable price? Have I left something out that you would recommend?
Thanks!
 
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alkit said:
Thanks for the heads up, didn't check that one up properly :o
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And all non-plasmas listed are LCDs. There is no such thing as an LED TV (at least at the entry/mid range). CCFL backlit LCD and LED backlit LCD is what they are. Same tech, only the backlight differs. The former is generally better because it produces better colours (less washed out) and is less prone to light bleed problems (and light spots in the case of many LED-LCDs). The latter costs more because of marketing gimmick, so ignorant buyers are willing to pay more. When you go to a mass mart store, LED back-lit LCD will probably look best, because they are the brightest and so appear best under bright shop lighting. Terrible to judge TVs in mass mart stores.

Plasma offers better value and picture quality most of the time, especially at the entry/mid range which is where your budget is. If I was dead set on LCD the only time would be if I sat close enough to get the full FHD experience, or if the room had bright light/ing that reflected badly off the plasma. If you sit 2.5m+ from your TV, you will struggle to tell the difference between 1080p on a FHD vs HD Ready TV.

So it's basically PS51D550 if you think you need FHD and 3D, or PS51D490 (if you think you don't need FHD but you think you need 3D), or PS51D450 (if you don't think you need FHD/3D).

Only if the room is brightly lit would I consider LCD. Samsung are generally better as they use PVA panels vs LG's IPS. PVA offers better blacks (higher contrast) and better viewing angles. The problem with Samsung is that they now only offer 100Hz engines in their LED back-lit LCDs, of which many have poor light bleed. Would be better off looking for last year's LA46D650 6 Series 100Hz LCD.
 
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PostmanPot said:
Plasma offers better value and picture quality most of the time, especially at the entry/mid range which is where your budget is. If I was dead set on LCD the only time would be if I sat close enough to get the full FHD experience, or if the room had bright light/ing that reflected badly off the plasma. If you sit 2.5m+ from your TV, you will struggle to tell the difference between 1080p on a FHD vs HD Ready TV.

So it's basically PS51D550 if you think you need FHD and 3D, or PS51D490 (if you think you don't need FHD but you think you need 3D), or PS51D450 (if you don't think you need FHD/3D).

Only if the room is brightly lit would I consider LCD. Samsung are generally better as they use PVA panels vs LG's IPS. PVA offers better blacks (higher contrast) and better viewing angles.
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Thanks a ton for the detailed response! Much appreciated!
 
If you would like to hear from someone else:

DevillEars said:
Which is better depends on a number of factors/requirements...

If screen-size vs price is a key issue, then plasma offers bigger screens for less cash.
If dark blacks and overall colour balance in lower ambient light levels are factors then, once again, plasma wins out
If full HD at smaller screen size is an issue, then LCD/LED are the only real options
If live sport and motion-intensive video material are a major usage, then plasma offers less motion smearing at realistic prices.
If the viewing area is brightly lit then LED backlit LCD offers the best solution

Taking the options...

Plasma: Pro: Size:Cost ratio, good motion reproduction, good blacks & colour; Con: Heat generated by panel, Full HD only on larger panels, best in lowish ambient light levels
CCFL-backlit LCD: Pro: Costs dropping due to LED, Full HD on small panels, low heat generation, work well in highish ambient light levels; Con: CCFL lamp(s) blows = replace panel, motion smearing on cheaper panels, blacks not black
LED-backlit LCD: Pro: Prices improving due to volumes, Full HD on small panels, low heat generation, low current consumption, work very well in high ambient light levels, should last due to LEDs; Con: Motion smearing on cheaper panels, blacks not back

The best plasma panel I've ever seen was the latest design level TV from Pioneer but it was pricey. The picture at full HD on a 46" panel was the best I've ever seen on any flat panel.
CCFL (Cold Cathode Fluorescent Lamp) panels usually have lamp integrated into panel, so if lamp packs up, then the panel can be thrown away. One or two manufacturers (Sharp? Toshiba? I'm not sure which) use replaceable CCFL "modules" but these are also quite pricey.
LED-backlit panels come in two flavours:

1) Direct-illuminated where LEDs are located across the full screen area. These allow individual area LEDs to be turned off completely for better blacks, but the cost is higher and panels tend to be thicker
2) Edge-illuminated where LEDs are located around the edges. Blacks not as black as direct-illuminated, but panels can be very thin and the cost tends to be lower

Motion smearing has been recognised as an issue in LCD panels and manufacturers have reacted by offering faster refresh rates (up to 400fps) and interpolative software to plug in the additional frames over and above the typical video standard of 25fps

Another common misunderstanding lies in the size vs viewing distance equation. Many people ignore the mix of programme material and the resultant mix in source resolutions viewed. Selecting a humungous panel based only on HD program material at a given viewing distance provides a set-up that optimised for HD, but is NOT optimised for lower resolution material, which becomes very grainy and over-pixellated. When selecting panel size, REMEMBER to take into account source programming to be viewed!

So, what it all comes down to is that it's a case of horses for courses - depending on your requirements balance or priorities - where one technology will best address your specific needs. To attempt to define one as "the best" in all circumstances is likely to be misleading.

Late last year, a nearby lightning strike on the power line caused a surge that took out our old CRT TV sets so we decided to move to flat screens. Wife and I have very different tastes in viewing materials, so we did not go for one large (42" or larger) panel but chose, instead, to opt for 2 x 32" TVs. After much activity viewing options, we settled for 2 x Samsung 32" Full HD LED-backlit LCD TVs (UA32C5000). After almost a year, I have no regrets whatsoever - viewing distance is just under 3m in both cases and 32" is a good compromise size at this distance when viewing a mix of terrestrial analogue material (SABC/eTV/MNet) and HD movies.

Finally, DO TAKE THE TROUBLE TO RTFM AND GET TO UNDERSTAND HOW TO OPTIMISE THE COLOUR/CONTRAST/BRIGHTNESS/GAMMA SETTINGS! Also, switch the set from "Showroom" to "Home" (or whatever terminology is used) before carrying out adjustments to picture. If you want to get the best out of any panel - be it plasma or LCD - the picture settings need to be optimised for the environment(s) in which the TV will be used. You may well need to set up two or more sets of settings - one for daytime viewing and another for nighttime viewing.

A Tip: Rather than approach picture settings from scratch, I went web-surfing and Googled the make/model and "picture settings" and then read the posts found and selected one set that seemed to match my needs and setup the Samsung TV to the settings shown in the post. This gave very good results and a fine picture that only needed a few minor "tweaks" to optimise for my tastes. Much quicker and less frustrating than starting from first principles!

Have fun!
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alkit said:
Currently, looking for something 46 inch to 51 inch. Have found some great prices, but each has a different technology and cons/pros.!
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Went through very similar desicion recently. These were my findings ...

LG 47LK530 - Very good for the price, has 100Hz motion & a non-reflective matt screen, but LG's black levels were poor and subjectively the 100Hz motion processing not as slick as Samsung

LG 47LW4500 - Similar to above, but with passive 3D which has half resolution to active, but uses cheap/light glasses (I wasnt that interested in 3D). Also considering the price the absence of an Ethernet port for streaming/sw updates was disappointing

Samsung UA46D5000 - My problem with the 5 series LEDs was motion handling no better than the cheaper LCDs e.g. LA46D550, they dont have a proper 100Hz engine only LED based motion handling

Samsung PS51D450 - Wasnt interested, my primary criteria was best quality full HD picture

Samsung PS51D550 - Produces a great natural HD picture, but for my bright viewing environment reflectivity and lack of brightness was an issue. Also wasnt happy with the lack of fluid motion esp apparent on 24p Bluray in the form of horizontal panning judder.

Samsung UA46D6000 - Eventually the set I purchased. Side by side next to a PS51D550 the D6000s full HD image was brighter, more vivid and had greater depth, basically more POP as its called. The 200Hz CMR motion handling is effective and I couldnt see justification to go for the D6600's higher 400Hz CMR at R4500 extra.

Ultimately you should choose the model that matches your most important criteria best, none of them are perfect in all respects (e.g. D6000 3D is rubbish).
 
Roman4604 said:
Samsung UA46D6000 - Eventually the set I purchased. Side by side next to a PS51D550 the D6000s full HD image was brighter, more vivid and had greater depth, basically more POP as its called. The 200Hz CMR motion handling is effective and I couldnt see justification to go for the D6600's higher 400Hz CMR at R4500 extra.
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Sorry but how is this related?
 
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