Manto hailed as hero

The American Society of Addiction Medicine define alcoholism as "a primary, chronic disease characterized by impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking.
Click to expand...

Seems like an epitaph written just for Manto.

Alcoholism is a disease caused by lifestyle. It's not contagious or hereditary but self-inflicted.
 
joelus said:
Maybe I would if I had to choose between a number of different Doctors who are willing to state in public what they diagnose as opposed to nameless sources who could have been made up, or be a disgruntled ex-employee or whatever and smacks of conspiracy theory...
Click to expand...

So you would accept that Shaik is and has been in the final stages of terminal disease for the last 6 months.
 
daveza said:
Seems like an epitaph written just for Manto.

Alcoholism is a disease caused by lifestyle. It's not contagious or hereditary but self-inflicted.
Click to expand...

Some people are genetically predisposed towards alcoholism and this is hereditory. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/75738.php
Thanks to this study, researchers have shown that the lack of endorphin is hereditary, and thus that there is a genetic predisposition to become addicted to alcohol.
Click to expand...

Admittedly the relationship between alcoholism and hereditary hemochromatosis can be controversial but there is a lot of evidence which shows a genetic component (as a simple google search will show).

So a person is genetically more prone to becoming an alcoholic. Once one is an alcoholic it is no longer a lifestyle choice. Alcohol is one of the (if not the) most addictive substance known. People die from alcohol withdrawal and even if they survive, the symptoms are severe:

For some, who are less chemically dependent, withdrawal symptoms might be as "mild" as merely getting the shakes, or the sweats -- or perhaps nausea, headache, anxiety, a rapid heart beat, and increased blood pressure.

Although these symptoms are uncomfortable and irritating, they are not necessarily dangerous. But they are often accompanied by the "craving" for more alcohol, making the decision to continue abstinence much more difficult to make.

Even the "morning after" hangover of someone who only occasionally drinks to excess, is actually a mild form of alcohol withdrawal from the excesses of the night before, as the alcohol content of their blood begins to drop. The symptoms can appear within a few hours after not drinking.

The DT's
However, within six to 48 hours after not drinking, hallucinations may develop. These usually are visual hallucinations but they can also involve sounds and smells. They can last for a few hours up to weeks at a time.

Also within this time frame after quitting, convulsions or seizures can occur, which is the point at which alcohol withdrawal can become dangerous, if not medically treated. The symptoms may progress to delirium tremens (DT's) after three to five days without alcohol. The symptoms of DT's include profound confusion, disorientation, hallucinations, hyperactivity, and extreme cardiovascular disturbances.

Once DT's begin, there is no known medical treatment to stop them. Grand mal seizures, heart attacks and stroke can occur during the DT's, all of which can be fatal.
Click to expand...
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/withdrawal/a/aa000125a.htm
 
joelus said:
Some people are genetically predisposed towards alcoholism and this is hereditory. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/75738.php


Admittedly the relationship between alcoholism and hereditary hemochromatosis can be controversial but there is a lot of evidence which shows a genetic component (as a simple google search will show).

So a person is genetically more prone to becoming an alcoholic. Once one is an alcoholic it is no longer a lifestyle choice. Alcohol is one of the (if not the) most addictive substance known. People die from alcohol withdrawal and even if they survive, the symptoms are severe:


http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/withdrawal/a/aa000125a.htm
Click to expand...


In my mind that is the biggest load of bs I've ever come accross. Coming from a family and a heritage of drinking wine and alchohol, drinking in excess is what causes alcholism and that is still a self-inflicted state.

I dont disagree about withdrawal, those effects are common as with any addictive substance.
 
daveza said:
So you would accept that Shaik is and has been in the final stages of terminal disease for the last 6 months.
Click to expand...

um no...:erm: there was a definite "if" in my answer.
In Shaiks case the doctors didn't want to go public and were very cagey about the whole thing. It is suspicious.

In Manto's case a number of doctors came forward openly, for example:
Physician Professor Jeff Wing,
Sue Tager, the Academic Medical Director of the centre,
Dr Russell Britz, a chief transplant surgeon at the Wits Donald Gordon Medical Centre,
Dr Elmin Steyn, president of the Southern African Transplantation Society. None of these people were coerced to come forward and state their case.
 
joelus said:
Some people are genetically predisposed towards alcoholism and this is hereditory. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/75738.php


So a person is genetically more prone to becoming an alcoholic.
Click to expand...

Yes, but they can't catch it by walking past a bottle store.

If they go in, buy huge quantities of it ( with taxpayers money ) then pour it down their throat then ....

Nicotine addiction is also a nightmare but she didn't waste much time in outlawing cigarettes in many places did she.

If she was so personally aware of the dangers of alcohol she might have paid more attention to limiting its abuse.
 
Kosmik said:
In my mind that is the biggest load of bs I've ever come accross. Coming from a family and a heritage of drinking wine and alchohol, drinking in excess is what causes alcholism and that is still a self-inflicted state.

I dont disagree about withdrawal, those effects are common as with any addictive substance.
Click to expand...

Science disagrees with you, but whatever. You've closed your mind so no amount of scientific evidence will sway you in this regard. Those withdrawel effects, just by the way, are not common with any addictive substance. One does not get the DT's when giving up smoking or cocaine, foe example. Heroin comes close. http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/basicfax5.htm
 
joelus said:
Science disagrees with you, but whatever. You've closed your mind so no amount of scientific evidence will sway you in this regard. Those withdrawel effects, just by the way, are not common with any addictive substance. One does not get the DT's when giving up smoking or cocaine, foe example. Heroin comes close. http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/basicfax5.htm
Click to expand...

As with Manto's case, there are many scientifi opinions about hereditary alcholism. But your right, my mind is closed to that, she drank in excess and reaped the benfit even after being given the gift of a new liver.
 
daveza said:
Then perhaps you would like to justify her choosing private care as opposed to state health like 90% of her voters have to ?
Click to expand...

That doesn't need justification. She is entitled to private care just like any other working south african with medical aid. Or does being a minister mean you lose your rights?
 
Nobody chooses to become addicted to nicotine either and some find it easier to quit than others.

At some stage you realise that your addiction is becoming a problem - long before any genetic point of no return has been reached.

Honestly, if there were a forum like this in 1945 some would be justifying Hitlers actions as resulting from factors beyond his control. When he died and we all peed on his grave their sensitivities would be offended.
 
joelus said:
That doesn't need justification. She is entitled to private care just like any other working south african with medical aid. Or does being a minister mean you lose your rights?
Click to expand...

You don't find anything wrong with the minister of health giving tacit confirmation to her citizens that her own health system is not good enough for her?

Government ministers are allowed to buy porsches and BMW's with all the trimmings while their citizens find pennies to catch a deathtrap. You find this acceptable too?
 
daveza said:
Nobody chooses to become addicted to nicotine either and some find it easier to quit than others.

At some stage you realise that your addiction is becoming a problem - long before any genetic point of no return has been reached.

Honestly, if there were a forum like this in 1945 some would be justifying Hitlers actions as resulting from factors beyond his control. When he died and we all peed on his grave their sensitivities would be offended.
Click to expand...

Well I agree with you there :eek: but I wouldn't be one of them.
To compare Manto to Hitler is just unfair and inappropriate.
And as mentioned earlier, quitting nicotine and quitting alcohol are two different kettles of fish!
 
joelus said:
That doesn't need justification. She is entitled to private care just like any other working south african with medical aid. Or does being a minister mean you lose your rights?
Click to expand...

she has her right to choose private hospital .....

she also has right to go to other country to have a new liver .....

we are just sorry for the majority are being fooled and lost their lives because of voting anc in power! We cannot blame her, we only can blame the foolish and ignorant majority, but not ANC.

Satisfied? ;)
 
daveza said:
You don't find anything wrong with the minister of health giving tacit confirmation to her citizens that her own health system is not good enough for her?

Government ministers are allowed to buy porsches and BMW's with all the trimmings while their citizens find pennies to catch a deathtrap. You find this acceptable too?
Click to expand...

um:erm: you expect the state to provide medical treatment to all it's citizens that is of the same standard as the (incredibly expensive) private healthcare?
:confused:
She was an employed woman with medical aid who had the unenviable task of providing healthcare for around 50,000,000 people using facilities and hospitals created to deal with only 10% of that and an AIDS epidemic. She did a lousy job, I'll admit that, but to expect her to provide private health care levels of service (which you the taxpayer would have to finance) is just ridiculous.
And to expect her to not take advantage of the freedoms she fought for by going to a private hospital which she can afford as any other woman employed on that level is equally ridiculous.

As for government ministers being allowed to buy Porsches and BMW's, of course, if it is out of their own pocket I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with the state providing these benefits for Mr Manuel and co though...
 
joelus said:
um:erm: you expect the state to provide medical treatment to all it's citizens that is of the same standard as the (incredibly expensive) private healthcare?
:confused:
Click to expand...

So it had nothing to do with the fact that state hospitals would have refused any transplant ....

As for government ministers being allowed to buy Porsches and BMW's, of course, if it is out of their own pocket I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with the state providing these benefits for Mr Manuel and co though...
Click to expand...

You really are smoking something seriously good. Out of their own pockets ?

Are you an earthling?
 
daveza said:
Have you done both ? ( giving up cigs but continuing the weed doesn't count )
Click to expand...

No!
My alcohol limit is about 2 beers before I want to go sleep so I never really got into it, I guess I'm genetically predisposed to not enjoying alcohol that much.
I have given up cigs though (after smoking for about 10 years), but do still have the odd social relapse and still smoke the odd joint on occasion... :whistle:

Oh and I do believe that I am indeed an Earthling, yes.
 
joelus said:
OK! Well, seems a bit unfair - alcoholism is a disease itself...
Click to expand...
No, it's a choice. No-one is suddenly struck with abusing alcohol, they choose to drink it when they know they are unable to keep it in check.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top
Sign up to the MyBroadband newsletter
X