[May 2013..Dec 2013] The Gauteng E-tolling Thread

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garp said:
SANRAL claims to have a system to automatically detect cloned license plates. How?
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If you go under two different gantries during an impossibly short time, that's what I heard in a radio interview, don't know how that will prevent other instances of cloning.
 
supersunbird said:
If you go under two different gantries during an impossibly short time, that's what I heard in a radio interview, don't know how that will prevent other instances of cloning.
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That's a good idea (not)! So how does it identify the original vs the cloned plate (and assume the copied one is used on the same model and colour as the legal owner's vehicle)?
 
It can't...

Even the cops super fancy OCR systems for speeding fines are atrocious at actually matching a vehicle to a license plate.

I have received a fine before on my number plate, from a place I never ever visited. Went to look at the photo and it wasn't even the same car/colour... but it was still my problem to sort out.
 
supersunbird said:
If you go under two different gantries during an impossibly short time, that's what I heard in a radio interview, don't know how that will prevent other instances of cloning.
Click to expand...

But that relies entirely on assumption event that someone with your cloned plate will be on the freeway at the same time, far enough away to trigger anomaly.

Hmmm... I was wondering if there was a way to confuse their own system into misidentifying genuine plates as cloned.
 
garp said:
SANRAL claims to have a system to automatically detect cloned license plates. How?
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They don't.
The problem of cloned license plates has not been solved and will be around as long as corruption abounds in the licensing departments. It is also relatively easy to have a numberplate made or to make one yourself that looks legit.

This is the same disinformation as the other disinformation I have heard that the cameras on the gantries can read the paper licence disk and check if its legit. I have doubts about that one, it can be done, probably with insane optics and uber expensive cameras (the ones on the gantries do not look nearly up to the job)
 
Gauteng e-tolls to go live at midnight

The long-awaited electronic tolling system (e-tolls) on Gauteng's highways is expected to go live at midnight on Monday.

This follows several years of delays due to court challenges and a public outcry.

Below is the timeline of events leading up to the day Gauteng motorists will start paying.

October 8, 2007 -- Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project (GFIP) is officially launched.

October 12, 2007 -- Intention to toll sections of Gauteng's freeways published in Government Gazette. Public asked to comment.

November 14, 2007 -- Closing date for public comment on the proposed introduction of e-tolls.

March 28, 2008 -- Sections of Gauteng freeways declared toll roads in Government Gazette.

June 26, 2008 -- Construction of the first phase of the GFIP commences.

June 2010 -- The SA National Roads Agency Limited (Sanral) starts erecting toll gantries along Gauteng's freeways.

February 4, 2011 -- Sanral announces e-toll tariffs and that registration commences in the second quarter of 2011.

February 18, 2011 -- Congress of SA Trade Unions announces it will call for strike action over the introduction of e-tolls.

February 22, 2011 -- The then transport minister Sibusiso Ndebele suspends implementation of e-tolls and establishes a committee to address concerns about the tariffs.

March 2011 -- Public consultation process on e-tolls takes place.

June 2011 -- GFIP steering committee announces reduced e-toll tariffs following the public consultation process.

August 10, 2011 -- Cabinet approves the revised tariffs for e-tolls.

October 23, 2011 -- Ndebele orders that e-tolls be halted and that further consultation take place.

November 2011 -- Public hearings held on e-tolls.

February 22, 2012 -- In his budget speech, Finance Minister Pravin Gordhan announces that e-tolls will go ahead at reduced rate in April of that year.

March 2012 -- Opposition to Urban Tolling Alliance (Outa) applies for an urgent interdict in the High Court in Pretoria against the implementation of e-tolls.

April 29, 2012 -- The court grants Outa an interim interdict pending a full judicial review.

March 22, 2012 -- Treasury files an appeal against the interim interdict in the Constitutional Court.

August 15, 2012 -- Case is heard in the Constitutional Court.

September 20, 2012 -- Constitutional Court sets aside the temporary interdict.

December 13, 2012 -- After the full judicial review, the High Court in Pretoria rules against Outa in its application to have the implementation of e-tolls set aside.

January 25, 2013 -- High Court in Pretoria grants Outa leave to appeal to the Supreme Court of Appeal (SCA) against the December ruling.

September 25, 2013 -- Outa appeal is heard in the SCA.

October 9, 2013 -- Outa loses its appeal in the SCA.

November 20, 2013 -- Transport Minister Dipuo Peters announces e-tolls will go live on December 3.

November 26, 2013 -- Sanral warns that a hefty bill awaits non-registered motorists without e-toll accounts who fail to pay for e-tolls within a week. The Freedom Front Plus announces a last-minute attempt to stop the implementation of e-tolls through an application for an interdict in the High Court in Pretoria.

December 2, 2013 -- FF Plus application is heard in court.


Source : Sapa /cp/hdw/cls/th
Date : 02 Dec 2013 13:43
 
Koosi said:
This is the same disinformation as the other disinformation I have heard that the cameras on the gantries can read the paper licence disk and check if its legit. I have doubts about that one, it can be done, probably with insane optics and uber expensive cameras (the ones on the gantries do not look nearly up to the job)
Click to expand...

That seems highly unlikely, yes. Do you know if their cameras use the front or back plate (or both)?
 
Guys do you think we should make a new thread tonight?

I'm thinking it might get very busy very quickly and might be better to make a new start on the day they go live so that we can keep people's actual experiences all together in one place?
 
Garyvdh said:
Guys do you think we should make a new thread tonight?

I'm thinking it might get very busy very quickly and might be better to make a new start on the day they go live?
Click to expand...

Sure. Maybe you can just add the link to DJ's booklet in your first post of the new thread, for easy reference.
 
Evidently the taxi associations register VLN's with SANRAL on behalf of the taxi owners.
The taxi's do not need to use e-tags for identification.
According to a thread on the AVCOM forums, taxi owners are also registering private vehicle, number plate numbers as taxi's in order to avoid paying toll fees.

No wonder there is so little noise from the taxi community!
Friends and family with private vehicles can travel for free.
 
Paul_S said:
Evidently the taxi associations register VLN's with SANRAL on behalf of the taxi owners.
The taxi's do not need to use e-tags for identification.
According to a thread on the AVCOM forums, taxi owners are also registering private vehicle, number plate numbers as taxi's in order to avoid paying toll fees.

No wonder there is so little noise from the taxi community!
Friends and family with private vehicles can travel for free.
Click to expand...

We should all make friends and register as taxis!
 
Ok, as an outsider I have read as much as I can and still cannot see the issues other than a political opposition to create anarchy and blame the unworkability on the govt...or just blame the govt straight up and accuse them of corruption.

I do believe the SA govt is corrupt, like some other govts around world, and that the corruption should be resisted. The best way to do that is to actually focus on the real corruption rather than be disengenuous about it.

Good luck with it.

For those that are interested, here are some comparitive figures* from over here...I wonder if our govt is even more corrupt.

Aus:
Fuel Tax/levy: $16B
Registrations: $10B

SA
Fuel Levy: R80B
Licence/reg: R5B

Add to that the amount of money collected in fines (and compliance/legal enforcement) in paying, plus the massive difference in driving licence fees (multiplied by amount of drivers licenced) and you are talikng about at least R200B less revenue in SA, yet we cannot fund our roads out of that without tolls but you expect the SA govt to.

Bloody corrupt Aussie govt...off with their heads.
 
OzzieCapie said:
Ok, as an outsider I have read as much as I can and still cannot see the issues other than a political opposition to create anarchy and blame the unworkability on the govt...or just blame the govt straight up and accuse them of corruption.

I do believe the SA govt is corrupt, like some other govts around world, and that the corruption should be resisted. The best way to do that is to actually focus on the real corruption rather than be disengenuous about it.

Good luck with it.

For those that are interested, here are some comparitive figures* from over here...I wonder if our govt is even more corrupt.

Aus:
Fuel Tax/levy: $16B
Registrations: $10B

SA
Fuel Levy: R80B
Licence/reg: R5B

Add to that the amount of money collected in fines (and compliance/legal enforcement) in paying, plus the massive difference in driving licence fees (multiplied by amount of drivers licenced) and you are talikng about at least R200B less revenue in SA, yet we cannot fund our roads out of that without tolls but you expect the SA govt to.

Bloody corrupt Aussie govt...off with their heads.
Click to expand...

You cannot compare Australia with South Africa.....
 
E-tolls: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Dawie Roodt said:
The ‘correct’ price of any good or service is of the utmost importance for the proper working of an economy. Economic agents (that’s all of us) will decide how and how much of a particular resource to allocate depending on its price.

For instance, if electricity is priced incorrectly, too much (if the price is too low) or too little (if the price is too high) will be consumed. The result will be that a resource will not be allocated optimally and the economy will suffer as a result – and Eskom has proved this point very well. This economic ‘law’ applies to toll roads as well.

Furthermore, it is also of importance to allocate the cost of an expense correctly. If my neighbour pays for my electricity, I will have no regard about how much of the stuff I use – economists call this the ‘internalisation of an expense’. From this comes the ‘user-charge principle’ which simply says that the one that uses a resource should pay for it. Apart from the fact that it sounds ‘right’, it has a solid base in economic theory.

Additionally, things like tolls can also be used very effectively to achieve other things. In London, for instance, changing toll fees are used very effectively to regulate traffic in the city centre.

So there is no doubt that tolls have very solid arguments to support it.

But there are a number of requirements that are important.

First, since roads are not like beer where ‘normal’ supply and demand forces can determine the correct price, some other mechanism has to be used to determine the correct price. Here our proposed toll system falls flat. We are simply not given all the info to check how the prices are determined – some information is ‘confidential’.

As far as I’m concerned I (and all of us) should have total access to all the information about the whole project because I am the user, I am the taxpayer and the project is a public project. Since I do not have all the info about the project I cannot determine if the price is correct and I also cannot determine if the collection fees are reasonable – they do sound quite steep to me! Also, I want to know everything about the parties involved in the whole project because I want to be sure that there are no monkeyshines going on.

I don’t care if foreigners are involved but I want to be sure that I get the best possible deal – I can’t determine that without having full access to all the information.

Another requirement for a ‘good’ toll system is that no exceptions should be allowed. This is very important because the moment exceptions are allowed the basic economic arguments in favour of tolls are lost. By allowing taxis not to pay tolls, for instance, the cost of roads are ‘mispriced’ for taxis, leading to a misallocation of this resource.

In addition, by capping the amount a user will pay the whole system is undermined because the user-charge principle says that if you use more you must pay more. And anyway, tolls are supposed to also regulate traffic and by capping tolls this benefit of tolls is undermined.

But I think the whole toll disaster and the massive public opposition to it is based on something more sinister. In the past state expenditure was used to pay for all sorts of things. This included stuff like spending on social/current expenditure and also a significant part on capital expenditure.

However, for the past fifteen years or so social expenditure (grants, education, housing, health) were even more prioritised while capital expenditure mostly fell to the wayside. In the meantime our capital stock started to deteriorate while sufficient new infrastructural expenditure was simply not done – again the Eskom disaster is a good example, but the roads are an equally good illustration.

So suddenly we realised we must spend more money on capital maintenance as well as on new capital. Unfortunately, the money that was traditionally spent on capital has now been earmarked for other more voter-friendly social expenditure items.

Since the state run out of money new sources of funding needed to be developed and tolls were an obvious route. In a way the state has ‘privatised’ this new tax. And that is why people are angry. The tax burden has gone up quite substantially in recent years and the tolls are seen as just another tax. If my existing tax burden can be reduced I will be more than happy to pay for the roads (provided it is properly implemented). So the toll revolt is actually a tax revolt.

So how to fix this disaster? Obviously the best way is to do the toll thing properly but since that is unlikely to happen the only workable alternative is to increase the fuel levy. This will also lead to more inflation and more pressure on an already maltreated consumer. The other provinces will have to pay for Gauteng’s roads but they already get a massive transfer from Gauteng – so stop complaining. An option is to increase only Gauteng’s fuel levy. It is practical and legal but that will result in a hefty increase in Gauteng’s fuel levy.

The way the whole toll saga was managed is an exact example of how to cock things up. And as always we, the consumer, will eventually pay again for the ridiculous decisions our political leaders made, as always…
Click to expand...
 
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