[May 2013..Dec 2013] The Gauteng E-tolling Thread

[Paul Hjul]

They are one and the same thing. It's not like FF+ could have known months ago that the government would ignore the law stating that they need to give 14 days notice. They only found out about that 13 days ago.

they aren't if the notice is improper and the consequence is that the tolling is unlawful it will remain so in the 45 days or so that getting such a case onto the opposed motion court roll and then SANRAL will be liable to refund anybody who was unlawfully tolled and all proceedings commencing from the tolling in the unlawful period will need to be set aside.
I believe, with respect, that the judge erred by not granting alternate relief such as to prevent SANRAL from seeking a fiat accompli on something inherently unlawful but such an approach is a matter of discretion.

 

[Mila]

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-12-01-zuma-appoints-new-judges

What a joke. Today was the judge's first day in office.

Well I got hauled over the coal's for saying just this.

 

[CR34M3]

Sorry if this is a repost, but does anyone know where exactly it states WHEN SANRAL will have a criminal case opened agaist an individual for non-payment? I plan to drag payment out for as long as possible, but a criminal case pending (nevermind a criminal record) will more than likely cause me to lose my job. So yeah, I need to be careful.

 

[DJ...]

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-12-01-zuma-appoints-new-judges

What a joke. Today was the judge's first day in office.

Yup, Zuma made these new appointments as a clear interference with the court system...

 

[Wyzak]

they aren't if the notice is improper and the consequence is that the tolling is unlawful it will remain so in the 45 days or so that getting such a case onto the opposed motion court roll and then SANRAL will be liable to refund anybody who was unlawfully tolled and all proceedings commencing from the tolling in the unlawful period will need to be set aside.
I believe, with respect, that the judge erred by not granting alternate relief such as to prevent SANRAL from seeking a fiat accompli on something inherently unlawful but such an approach is a matter of discretion.

I will withhold payment until then.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

1. Who will pay the taxes when the taxpayers are in jail?
2. Where will they find jail space in our already overcrowded jails?

Before you go there, good luck to them in getting the NPA to prosecute hundreds of thousands of people.

 

[MrGray]

Sorry if this is a repost, but does anyone know where exactly it states WHEN SANRAL will have a criminal case opened agaist an individual for non-payment? I plan to drag payment out for as long as possible, but a criminal case pending (nevermind a criminal record) will more than likely cause me to lose my job. So yeah, I need to be careful.

Best I can make out is that you have 59 days from invoice date in which to pay (according to their website). After that they will hand you over to debt collectors and summons will be issued as you will be in contravention of the SANRAL Act (?) at which point you can either pay an admission of guilt fee (R1000?) but will have a criminal record, or take your chances in court. There is apparently no explicit requirement that they even send you an invoice let alone registered post as the SANRAL Act says that the onus is entirely on you to determine what you should pay. However, their website does make mention of 59 days *from invoice date*, so it seems they will be invoicing and I think Nazi Ali mentioned they were planning on doing so monthly.

 

[LazyLion]

Sorry if this is a repost, but does anyone know where exactly it states WHEN SANRAL will have a criminal case opened agaist an individual for non-payment? I plan to drag payment out for as long as possible, but a criminal case pending (nevermind a criminal record) will more than likely cause me to lose my job. So yeah, I need to be careful.

I would wait until the second letter of demand from SANRAL or the first letter of demand from the debt collection agency.
Remember, it has to be worth their time and money to hand you over, and they are not likely to hand you over for a paltry sum.
So it also depends on the amount. If you owe hundreds of rands, they are more likely to hand you over faster.

 

[MrGray]

I would wait until the second letter of demand from SANRAL or the first letter of demand from the debt collection agency.
Remember, it has to be worth their time and money to hand you over, and they are not likely to hand you over for a paltry sum.
So it also depends on the amount. If you owe hundreds of rands, they are more likely to hand you over faster.

Based on the act though, it doesn't look like they actually have to send any letters of demand, etc - this was Xeslaro'a link, which partially covers this but if you read the whole act you are automatically assumed to have incurred the toll as the owner of the vehicle and it states elsewhere I think that the onus is entirely on the motorist to make payment:

Makes me sick :twisted:

View attachment 85065

http://www.jutalaw.co.za/media/filestore/2012/11/b_30B_-_2012_-_Transport_Laws_and_Related_Matters_AB.pdf

 

[LazyLion]

That's not going to stand up very well for them in court.

 

[Hamster]

Based on the act though, it doesn't look like they actually have to send any letters of demand, etc - this was Xeslaro'a link, which partially covers this but if you read the whole act you are automatically assumed to have incurred the toll as the owner of the vehicle and it states elsewhere I think that the onus is entirely on the motorist to make payment:

Does that mean they don't have to prove to you that you drove through the gantry? Surely not.

 

[DJ...]

Does that mean they don't have to prove to you that you drove through the gantry? Surely not.

Nope. They don't...

 

[MrGray]

Does that mean they don't have to prove to you that you drove through the gantry? Surely not.

Unbelievably, that's exactly what the act says:

59A. (1) In the absence of evidence to the contrary, where it is necessary
to prove who was driving, operating or using the vehicle at the time when
the liability to pay toll was incurred, it shall be deemed that such vehicle
was driven, operated or used by the owner of the vehicle

 

[Paul Hjul]

Does that mean they don't have to prove to you that you drove through the gantry? Surely not.

the transport laws are proposed to be amended to reverse the onus

 

[daveza]

567 radio report says Sanral aims to blacklist those who don't pay.

Without a judgement ?

 

[Hamster]

Nope. They don't...

 

[Jola]

Nope. They don't...

That is crazy, so you can go to jail if someone drives around with copies of your number plates ?

 

[MrGray]

567 radio report says Sanral aims to blacklist those who don't pay.

Without a judgement ?

It's very garbled, because they can also issue you a summons and fine you R1000. Whether they're planning on doing that as well as getting a judgement is unknown which is exactly why JPSA requested clarity.

Keeping everyone in the dark about what will happen is definitely a deliberate SANRAL strategy to spread FUD (fear, uncertainty, disinformation).

 

[MrGray]

That is crazy, so you can go to jail if someone drives around with copies of your number plates ?

Well, you would have to provide some contrary evidence - probably just an affidavit is sufficient, at which point they will retrieve the pictures I suppose.

 

[IzZzy]

Feckit, I would rather pay the R480 for a taxi for my parents from OR Tambo to my place than bother with the SANRAL nonsense.