[May 2013..Dec 2013] The Gauteng E-tolling Thread

[Zenbaas]

That's up to you. I choose to exercise my right to send a letter to them.

That's like saying it's pointless voting because the ANC will win anyway.

+1. It's so little effort why not just do it for the sake of it?

 

[LazyLion]

That's up to you. I choose to exercise my right to send a letter to them.
That's like saying it's pointless voting because the ANC will win anyway.

That's fine, but all indications are that your correspondence to them will be ignored.

1) They have previously requested feedback from the public to the same address and nothing ever came of that.
2) The fact that the domain is down with no indication of being fixed is evidence of their lack of priority on this.
3) The entire "public consultations process" so far has been one big farce.
4) They are just going through the 'legal motions' to get this out of the way, the ANC has already stated emphatically that e-tolls will never be reversed.

So ja, it is your right, but I think you are wasting your time at this late stage.

And this is not at all like not voting. The voting process is governed by a Third party independent body - the IEC.
This process has no independent oversight whatsoever.

 

[Wyzak]

That's fine, but all indications are that your correspondence to them will be ignored.

That may be true, but I'll sleep better at night knowing that I tried to the right thing.

 

[Albereth]

The SANRAL board has five members hand picked by the Minister of Transport for a term of three years.
The SANRAL CEO is appointed by the Minister of Transport on recommendation by the board.
So yes, SANRAL are a private company but the decisions the SANRAL board make are definitely affected by the DOT even if not all the hand picked members have voting rights.

Everything from the approval of tariffs to changing of legislation goes through the government so they cannot do whatever they please.
The problem is that both the ANC and SANRAL are in the same bed so they just approve whatever they like regardless of public sentiment or what is good for the country as a whole.

Just my opinion of course.

SANRAL is a State Owned Company. It is subject to the PFMA (And the Companies Act except where it isn't)

 

[Paul_S]

SANRAL is a State Owned Company. It is subject to the PFMA (And the Companies Act except where it isn't)

Thanks for pointing that out.
I see the full name is South African National Roads Agency SOC (State Owned Company) Limited.

 

[lucifir]

And this is not at all like not voting. The voting process is governed by a Third party independent body - the IEC.

was just wondering about the independence of the IEC after hearing about the corrupt head of the IEC and was wondering who actually appoints them?? Surely its the pres, and if so, then how independent can they be??

/derail

 

[LazyLion]

was just wondering about the independence of the IEC after hearing about the corrupt head of the IEC and was wondering who actually appoints them?? Surely its the pres, and if so, then how independent can they be??

/derail

Ja no I hear you... but at least there is an appointed intermediary.
In SANRAL's case there is no intermediary... you are sending your vote directly to the opposition.

 

[daveza]

Thanks for pointing that out.
I see the full name is South African National Roads Agency SOC (State Owned Company) Limited.

How can they be both state owned and independent ?

 

[Sinbad]

How can they be both state owned and independent ?

Because the ANC thinks independant means the opposite of what it does. Hence the independance of the judiciary...
Similar to how Mac Maharaj thinks "categorically" means "with my fingers crossed"

 

[lucifir]

Ja no I hear you... but at least there is an appointed intermediary.
In SANRAL's case there is no intermediary... you are sending your vote directly to the opposition.

I kinda disagree, as SANRAL and IEC seem to be on the same level to me, i.e. appointed by gov to carry out a task/function.
The real difference is that we can see the corruption from SANRAL as they going ahead with a system that is clearly flawed, and obviously lining some pockets.
With the IEC, we just do not see anything, and just hope that they actually doing what they say. For all we know they just make up the numbers and dont even bother counting the votes, as they already decided that the ANC must win, so they retain their jobs.

 

[LazyLion]

I kinda disagree, as SANRAL and IEC seem to be on the same level to me, i.e. appointed by gov to carry out a task/function.
The real difference is that we can see the corruption from SANRAL as they going ahead with a system that is clearly flawed, and obviously lining some pockets.
With the IEC, we just do not see anything, and just hope that they actually doing what they say. For all we know they just make up the numbers and dont even bother counting the votes, as they already decided that the ANC must win, so they retain their jobs.

Your thinking is very flawed here.
The IEC is not only staffed by ANC cadres or appointees.
It has members and reps from ALL parties in SA who also have complete oversight over it's independence.
The IEC is also subject to international scrutiny.

http://www.southafrica.info/about/democracy/iec.htm#.Ul6IYxA5U84

The Electoral Act of 1998 makes specific provision for accrediting neutral observers for South African elections.

The 1999 elections, for instance, were observed by about 11 000 neutral observers, 369 of whom were from abroad. The international observers included organisations such as the Organisation of African Unity, the European Parliamentarians for Africa and the Southern Africa Development Community.

The United Nations Electoral Assistance Division helped the IEC with co-ordinating the international observers, while the South African Council of Churches co-ordinated the local observers.

Only organisations can apply to the IEC to observe elections. Observer missions compile a report and announce their findings about the conduct of the elections and whether the poll was free and fair.

In addition, political parties contesting the elections are entitled to have monitors at voting stations to ensure compliance with voting procedures. Party monitors and observers also keep a watchful eye on the counting process after the close of the vote.

Read more: http://www.southafrica.info/about/democracy/iec.htm#.Ul6IYxA5U84#ixzz2ht7UAm7k

 

[lucifir]

Your thinking is very flawed here.
The IEC is not only staffed by ANC cadres or appointees.
It has members and reps from ALL parties in SA who also have complete oversight over it's independence.
The IEC is also subject to international scrutiny.

thanks for that ... glad to see its not how I thought it was and that there is actually some independence

/derail

 

[Albereth]

How can they be both state owned and independent ?

Supposedly the board applies its mind in the governance of the entity.

Supposedly.

 

[LazyLion]

thanks for that ... glad to see its not how I thought it was and that there is actually some independence

/derail

In fact the IEC has actually done a pretty good within the borders of SA (they did a hash job when they went to Zimbabwe some years ago).
There has never really been much reason before 2013 to criticise the IEC.

 

[Wyzak]

thanks for that ... glad to see its not how I thought it was and that there is actually some independence

/derail

Technically the parliament which passed the e-toll bill is also not just staffed by ANC cadres. I wonder how the ratios work at the IEC, probably something similar to parliament.

 

[lucifir]

In fact the IEC has actually done a pretty good within the borders of SA (they did a hash job when they went to Zimbabwe some years ago).
There has never really been much reason before 2013 to criticise the IEC.

Same could possibly be said for SANRAL, i.e prior to etolls, we did not have a prob with them.
But I do understand what you saying and do agree that they not quite the same thing.
Just hope that the IEC remains like it was and this is not the first steps down the SANRAL spiral

 

[lucifir]

In fact the IEC has actually done a pretty good within the borders of SA (they did a hash job when they went to Zimbabwe some years ago).
There has never really been much reason before 2013 to criticise the IEC.

Same could possibly be said for SANRAL, i.e prior to etolls, we did not have a prob with them.
But I do understand what you saying and do agree that they not quite the same thing.
Just hope that the IEC remains like it was and this is not the first steps down the SANRAL spiral

 

[LazyLion]

Same could possibly be said for SANRAL, i.e prior to etolls, we did not have a prob with them.
But I do understand what you saying and do agree that they not quite the same thing.
Just hope that the IEC remains like it was and this is not the first steps down the SANRAL spiral

True, I concede that point as well.

I was actually a big fan of SANRAL prior to 2010.
Used to follow all the projects on their website.

 

[DJ...]

True, I concede that point as well.

I was actually a big fan of SANRAL prior to 2010.
Used to follow all the projects on their website.

You need a better hobby, Gary.

Have you tried stamp collecting?

 

[LazyLion]

You need a better hobby, Gary.

Have you tried stamp collecting?

Well, I am thinking of collecting those plastic thingies that have the SANRAL sticker on them, there seems to be a lot of them lying around unused these days!