Murder down 30% since 1994, but perceptions different.

Yes... murder is down.. statistically..

And statistics like this are not believable given the experience of the man on the ground in my opinion.
 
Since you insist on bringing race into this, I have to wonder how much "white" murders have increased or decreased since '94... got stats for that?


Yeah there's stats. In 1994 white murders were around 15 per 100 000. Now they're around 12 per 100 000 (Slightly less than Russia). I admit this fluctuates and at times white murders have been as high as 20 per 100 000 (Washington Dc is 32 per 100 000 for comparison). The coloured murder rate interestingly has consistently been double that of the blacks at about 80-100 000 at times.

I think it's worth noting that white South Africans are big drinking , heavily armed aggressive people compared to our wussy European counterparts. Take other races out the equation and just have white South Africans living alone and the murder rate is going to be higher than Europe anyway. I might be wrong but parts of the country white people are beating each other senseless here for nothing all the time it seems.
 
Ahh, someone who judges points made by a forum nickname. In that case we should automatically assume that you talk BS based on yours :)

The point is that this thread is about murder rates. If you want to question the validity of crime in it's entirety then start a new thread.

wow so much for trying to inject some humor into the thread, you asked a question to somebody i gave an answer, chill bud it's friday.

lol i will now change my nick to The Truth ;)
 
Learn to read, idiot. I said at most one religion is true. I didn't assert that any specific religion is true. The point is that any religious person will agree that only 1 religion, at most, can be true, thus proving that billions of people have a false perception and therefore proving the absurdity of the claim that lots of people thinking the same thing can't be wrong.

Fair enough ;)
 
Well the facts I reffer to are as simple as Pre 1994 I was mugged/hijacked/broken in to a total of 0 times, post 1994 I have been mugged 3 times in various different area's, etc. Hijacked once and been broken into twice.
The above rings true for 90% of my friends and family. The facts I reffer to are from more than just research...

Are you serious? You can't possibly think that your little anecdote is a reasonable way to gather data over a country of 45,000,000+ people with an area over 1,000,000 square kilometers.

According to your logic, if I can find a few people who have never been mugged, that proves that their is no mugging in South Africa.

Secondly, and I see a lot of people lack comprehension skills in this thread, the OP is that murder rates have gone down since 1994. That doesn't mean that murder rates are better now than pre-1994 levels. It's simply that murder rates are better now than they were in 1994. Again, your little anecdote about events before 1994 is meaningless.

All those people who can remember playing outside in their neighbourhood before 1994 (as I can), you are completely missing the point. The statistic being debated contains the word "since" - as in from 1994 and after. Stop mentioning what happened before 1994, as it is irrelevant.
 
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OT> What language are you speaking?

But back to the matter at hand, I don't where you live but you're quite fortunate. I suppose you don't understand what it means to be a young female and an easy target.
I good friend of mine lived in an up-market area in Pretoria (Lynnwood). Some fellow, perhaps sharing the mentality that anything but murder is a petty crime and thus not a big deal, broke into her family's home (while I everyone was home I might add) and raped her in her own bed with her parents sleeping next door... Using the threat that if she made a peep, he'd rape her mother too and then kill both parents and her younger brother.

Ah well, suppose I'm fighting a losing battle with you.
Don't worry though, in this country, it's just a matter of time till everyone has a turn. When yours comes along (and yes WHEN not IF), you'll be singing a very different song mate.


Not to be an @ss and to be callous about your friend but horror stories like this fill people with fear and it's important we don't allow fear to cloud our objective judgment.

1 in every 11 murders in this country happens to a woman.

1 in 33 happens to a white person.

If the stats correlate then 1 in 333 murders happen to a white woman. In other words the chance of you being murdered as a white women here are 0.114 in 100 000. 10 times less than a person (although I imagine it's at least the same ratio (1: 11) in the UK) living in the UK.

So why not when you think of the horrible thing to happen to your friend say "Horrible criminal !" instead of "horrible country"? It's only South Africans who when faced with trauma lash out at their entire country and start to subscribe to entirely bogus perception about it. We need to stop entitling people to buy into this fear-mongering. Because fear is the number one enemy of rationality.
 
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Are you serious? You can't possibly think that your little anecdote is a reasonable way to gather data over a country of 45,000,000+ people with an area over 1,000,000 square kilometers.

According to your logic, if I can find a few people who have never been mugged, that proves that their is no mugging in South Africa.

Secondly, and I see a lot of people lack comprehension skills in this thread, the OP is that crime has gone down since 1994. That doesn't mean that crime is better now than pre-1994 levels. It's simply that crime is better now than it was in 1994. Again, your little anecdote about events before 1994 is meaningless.

All those people who can remember playing outside in their neighbourhood before 1994 (as I can), you are completely missing the point. The statistic being debated contains the word "since" - as in from 1994 and after. Stop mentioning what happened before 1994, as it is irrelevant.

mmmmm murder is down not other crimes ... i think you have missed something somewhere and bs crime is not better since 1994

http://www.iss.co.za/PUBS/CRIMEINDEX/00VOL4NO6/Ccomparing.html
 
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I think it's worth noting that white South Africans are big drinking , heavily armed aggressive people compared to our wussy European counterparts. Take other races out the equation and just have white South Africans living alone and the murder rate is going to be higher than Europe anyway. I might be wrong but parts of the country white people are beating each other senseless here for nothing all the time it seems.

Yes, and then there's this,
The analysis found that 47% of murders occurred among people who knew each other.
 
As a foreigner living in South Africa since 1993, this is my personal experience in S Africa:

Robbed by armed gang once personally, company colleague robbed in front of bank by armed gang once, witness my neighbors robbed by armed gang once, company broken into twice, and about half of my friends have been robbed by armed gang.

that versus

Number of my relatives, friends, friends of friends and friends of relatives who have been robbed by armed gang oversea since I was born = zero

Although this is hardly scientific, nobody can tell me there isn't a serious crime problem in this country. The first step is to admit there is a problem.


No one is disputing that we have a serious crime problem. We're (or I am) arguing that muder rates are not getting worse every day. (In fact, I'm not even arguing that, I'm simply arguing that personal anecdote is no way to determine whether crime is getting worse).
 
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Anyway. Why can't South Africans ever just aim for the middle ground. That's the point. Yes crime is too high. But it's at least getting better (not due to the police in my opinion , but to the economic conditions.) Why does that leave a bad taste in anyones mouth ? It's like we've become a nation of professional victims who find it more convenient to call our situation hopeless than have to do anything about it.
 
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mmmmm murder is down not other crimes ... i think you have missed something somewhere and bs crime is not better since 1994

Okay fair enough, I meant to say "murder". Murder rates going down is the topic of this thread, I reserve judgement on other crimes, but if I remember the stats correctly, other crimes have been increasing.
 
Anyway. Why can't South Africans ever just aim for the middle ground. That's the point. Yes crime is too high. But it's at least getting better (not due to the police in my opinion , but to the economic conditions. Why does that leave a bad taste in anyones mouth ?
Cos it's not like the good old days :/
 
Johannesburg — MURDER rates in SA had declined 30% over the past 15 years, but this has not been reflected in the perceptions of South Africans, who feel crime levels have actually increased, the South African Institute of Race Relations said yesterday.

Researcher Kerwin Lebone said the 25965 people murdered in 1994-95 had decreased to 18148 murders in 2008-09.

This showed a decrease in the rate of murders per 100000 people, from 70 in 1994-95 to 37 in 2008-09.


Lebone said the consistent decline in the murder rate showed that the police had achieved some success. However, the improvement in the murder rate was not reflected in the perceptions of South Africans that crime levels have increased.

House robberies, which are often violent and sometimes lead to people being killed, had the biggest effect on perceptions.


"Even if the crime figures show a trend of (murders) coming down, the public's perceptions will be formed by attacks where criminals forcibly enter homes while people are in them," he said.

Aggravated robbery had increased 43% since 1994-95, Lebone said. In that year police recorded 84000 such cases and this increased to 121392 in 2008- 09. This category of crime included bank robberies, car and truck hijackings, and robberies of businesses, homes and cash-in- transit vans.

Lebone said SA's murder rate was still unacceptably high and the use of private security had increased among those who could afford it, replacing the role of the police in their communities.

A possible explanation for the perception that all crime was increasing even while there were fewer murders, was that in the short term, the change in the murder rate was minimal.

For example, the number of murders in 2008-09 decreased 1,8% from 2007-08.

There had been an increase in expenditure on police, justice and correctional services from R13,8bn in 1995-96 to R54,3bn in 2007-08.

In the 2007-08 financial year, police were allocated 67% of the expenditure on protection services.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200912030176.html

my question is how do they define murder?
 
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Anyway. Why can't South Africans ever just aim for the middle ground. That's the point. Yes crime is too high. But it's at least getting better (not due to the police in my opinion , but to the economic conditions.) Why does that leave a bad taste in anyones mouth ? It's like we've become a nation of professional victims who find it more convenient to call our situation hopeless than have to do anything about it.

Cause we have perfectionist attitude and want to be the best at everything we do. We want to have very low crime, we want to have very good roads, we want to have good, fast and cheap telecoms. Why settle for second rate?
 
Researcher Kerwin Lebone said the 25965 people murdered in 1994-95 had decreased to 18148 murders in 2008-09.

This showed a decrease in the rate of murders per 100000 people, from 70 in 1994-95 to 37 in 2008-09.

Aggravated robbery had increased 43% since 1994-95, Lebone said. In that year police recorded 84000 such cases and this increased to 121392 in 2008- 09. This category of crime included bank robberies, car and truck hijackings, and robberies of businesses, homes and cash-in- transit vans.

This is really misleading reporting. When quoting the murder rates they include the per capita figure, but with the number or robberies they don't normalize for population increase (which according to the murder rates, it increased by 12,000,000 or around 30% over the period). In actual fact, the robbery rate per capita has only increased by 10%.

Someone with a calculator correct me if I'm wrong, I need to hurry off to get some beer before the cricket starts.
 
Well, when we have incidents like this: http://www.news24.com/Content/South...10-2009-09-56/Shot_man_died_of_natural_causes and again mentioned here with another case http://fto.co.za/news/murders-white...says-died-‘natural-causes’-2009103015649.html, what and who are we to believe? Is this a trend? I have read about more such incidents but these were the first two google results I found.

Why were the stats kept in the dark for so long before such positive results were revealed?

BlahBlah, I agree with you completely on this. Nothing more than window dressing.
 
This sounds more like the Mbeki denialist era. I thought we were past that and that we all acknowledge that crime is a big problem.

The longer we try to down play crime the longer it is going to take before we going to find real solutions.
 
This sounds more like the Mbeki denialist era. I thought we were past that and that we all acknowledge that crime is a big problem.

The longer we try to down play crime the longer it is going to take before we going to find real solutions.

But this was not a government report:confused:

Besides Zuma's regime has admitted that crime is a problem. All that happened here is someone took all the numbers from '94 and presented them. It's just stats!
 
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