MWEB Uncapped Subscribers Feedback

[DreamKing]

@MWEB Operations

why you guys not selling "high caps" products? I will spend R500 to buy a 100GB account. Why you have to "shape"???????

Or you think the people will spent R500 a month for an uncapped account just download 3GB?

set the limit to a product that you think it is "fair" for a normal uncapped account user will use (for example 100GB). "Shape", I don't think it is necessary.

Problem solved.

 

[MWEBHelp]

its all good and well MWEB but your Internet addict account should provide redundancy which was int the case when Seacom was down, so most of us who use it for business was out of order for a whole week, when I pay that huge amount for an internet account I expect to at least have some redundancy. and its pretty stupid that your router is locked when taking the business package. your routers cant even work with VOIP services because its locked.

Im not fighting with you here, just saying.

Also I cant understand why ppl need todo like 500 to 1000TBs a month, just because its uncapped doesint mean you should download the whole internet.

Degaron can you inbox me your contact details? I'd like to discuss some of these concerns with you and see what we can do to assist.

 

[xrapidx]

Thanks for your feedback xrapidx, please allow me the opportunity to clarify this.

If you read back through the lengthy discussions around this issue, I think you will find that this stance is very much in keeping with the biggest concerns that were raised by the most vocal members of this community.

We were asked to issue warnings and give an opportunity to rectify the behaviour; we have complied with this request.

We were asked to manage the situation more proactively from our side and ensure that we were shaping these services correctly, rather than limit the customer's ability to use them. This is very much an effort to align ourselves with that request and should not be construed as anything else.

The service is a shaped one and we have a primary responsibility to provide the best possible experience to the majority of our customers, who I can assure you from looking at the data analysis do not have peer to peer as their foremost need. This means that we will shape all peer to peer services that we are aware of and we will actively seek out ones that we are not aware of in the interests of maintaining the integrity of our network and the quality of service.

We provide an unshaped service specifically for customers who have a primary need to engage in these types of activities.

We have been open about the need for load balancing and the planned network upgrades and you personally along with many other members of this community have been given an alternative connection to use in the interim which has I believe, based on your feedback, proved to be satisfactory.

My only issue is you can't stop users from using a service purely because you haven't shaped it. I'm more than happy that MWEB shapes their service (when its not shaped to death) - but if I download something from a specific source, e.g. 4shared.com - and its not included in MWEBs shaping, this is not my problem - and should not even be a concern of mine, I found something I want to download, I am not attempting to bypassing shaping - I am just downloading a file from the source that provides it... to issue a warning when I have done no wrong, asking me for an explanation is not on.

I was not commenting on peer to peer services, or even newsgroups - I was commenting on downloading from unshaped http file servers.

Is there anything else we can assist you with at this point?

Kind Regards
MWEB Operations(Tech Manager)

I still have no idea how providing MWEB with my details improves my connection - when there is nothing wrong with my side? And various user report the same problem. What gets done to resolve it?

 

[sand_man]

Even offer a 2mb account unshaped, uncapped for around R600-R800 per month excluding line rental.

I think what irks a lot of people is the constantly changing nature of the product. The product and performance is perceived as inconsistent, erratic and maybe even a little unreliable. There don't seem to be clearly defined parameters and I get that is by design and not by coincidence but it creates uncertainty as to what exactly you are offering.

Your T&C's and AUP have become so complicated that the consumer could be in contravention and not know it. Rather offer a product that has clearly defined exclusions and limitations and is within your business models budgetary constraints. It took months to establish that at 11pm shaping is relaxed and even that is a moving target. Your policies are not clear and concise, they change from month to month as does the list of shaped servers.

Having said that it's still an excellent offering... Eh, what's the offering again...??

 

[xrapidx]

@MWEB Operations

why you guys not selling "high caps" products? I will spend R500 to buy a 100GB account. Why you have to "shape"???????

I also prefer that approach - at least its clear, you buy a 100Gb, you get a 100GB - do what you want with it.

 

[Shayd]

@MWEB Operations

why you guys not selling "high caps" products? I will spend R500 to buy a 100GB account. Why you have to "shape"???????

Or you think the people will spent R500 a month for an uncapped account just download 3GB?

set the limit to a product that you think it is "fair" for a normal uncapped account user will use (for example 100GB). "Shape", I don't think it is necessary.

Problem solved.

Dreamking you need to wrap your head around what MWEB is doing here. Thanks to Telkom, uncapped is regarded as a "premium service" for those who want to do hundreds of gigs a month.
Elsewhere in the world uncapped is the norm and while you have users who use a lot, the majority don't. In their own special way MWEB is trying to bring us in line with international norms.

Secondly capped internet is a very inefficient use of capacity, because you pay the same price for bandwidth no matter what protocol you use or when you use it. You find that the network is busy as hell at "prime time" and completely dead in the water off peak. This increases costs at you need more and more capacity at prime periods of the day, so your prices will reflect this cost.

Cybersmart got around this by creating off peak options like nightrider, but frankly between nightrider, weekender, giggy bank and the multitude of other options it is simply too complex for the man in the street.

So MWEB has decided to manage this all on the backend by moving downloads to non-peak periods, thereby utilizing the "dead zone" to satisfy downloaders.

The difference between the capped and uncapped model is the rationale behind them:

-With capped accounts you want to provide the fastest possible experience so that people will consume their bandwidth as quickly as possible and purchase more.
-With uncapped accounts you want to provide the lowest speed which will be accepted by the consumer to keep them happy.

The 2 business models each have their merit, you must just go for what makes sense to you. If MWEB made 100Gig R500 accounts, odds are they would lose astronomical amounts of money simply because their average consumption is nowhere near this.

People take uncapped accounts for 2 reasons:

1. They want do move vast quantities of Data monthly(the minority).
2. They want the freedom to know they will not get arbitrarily cut off each month and this creates 1 less hassle in a chaotic world(the majority).

 

[Chavez]

Hi guys,

Could I please ask all mweb subscribers to run the following test for me...log into your online account via www.mweb.mobi from you cell phone (scroll to the bottom of the page and click on 'My Account'). Once logged in click on 'Billing'. Write down the account number listed there.

Step 2 is to login to 'My Account' via your pc using the normal website www.mweb.co.za. Go to your billing info on the site and compare the account number and billing details to the one you were giving on your cell phone.

In my case the mobi site has linked mento someone elses account. The account number and billing details are totally different to that of my actual details (I assume) giving to me via pc login. I've notified their billing department of my case. I'm interested to see if someone else is having this issue as well.

 

[MWEBHelp]

My only issue is you can't stop users from using a service purely because you haven't shaped it. I'm more than happy that MWEB shapes their service (when its not shaped to death) - but if I download something from a specific source, e.g. 4shared.com - and its not included in MWEBs shaping, this is not my problem - and should not even be a concern of mine, I found something I want to download, I am not attempting to bypassing shaping - I am just downloading a file from the source that provides it... to issue a warning when I have done no wrong, asking me for an explanation is not on.

I was not commenting on peer to peer services, or even newsgroups - I was commenting on downloading from unshaped http file servers.


I still have no idea how providing MWEB with my details improves my connection - when there is nothing wrong with my side? And various user report the same problem. What gets done to resolve it?

You were moved onto the SAIX wholesale bandwidth that we are using to loadbalance, as this is bandwidth that is provisioned with capped customers in mind obviously the shaping experience is very different there.

Regarding your concerns about the AUP: You make a valid point and this is quite similar to the long running debate around VPN services, so let's look at a scenario interpretation:

Scenario A) You as a user are hunting for a file. You find it on service x and you download it. The file comes down at full line speed during the middle of the day when shaping is in effect. You probably don't think twice about this and neither do we.

Scenario B) As an Internet savvy user. You are looking for alternatives to fulfill your bitorrenting, or usenet needs. You discover a commercial usenet feed that provides SSL tunelling, or a direct download drop box/seedbox type service, which is not known to our traffic managers. You test the service and discover that you are getting full line speeds during hours that you know to be shaped. You then proceed to use your connection almost exclusively for retrieving files from this service, with no regard for the shaping policy.

I'm sure that as a reasonable user you can agree that in Scenario B, as your service provider on a shaped product, that we are will within our rights to engage with you regarding this behaviour and address the situation.

Kind Regards
MWEB Operations(Tech Manager)

 

[xrapidx]

Scenario B) As an Internet savvy user. You are looking for alternatives to fulfill your bitorrenting, or usenet needs. You discover a commercial usenet feed that provides SSL tunelling, or a direct download drop box/seedbox type service, which is not known to our traffic managers. You test the service and discover that you are getting full line speeds during hours that you know to be shaped. You then proceed to use your connection almost exclusively for retrieving files from this service, with no regard for the shaping policy.

I'm sure that as a reasonable user you can agree that in Scenario B, as your service provider on a shaped product, that we are will within our rights engage with you regarding this behaviour and address the situation.

Kind Regards
MWEB Operations(Tech Manager)

Scenario B is easily identifiable as attempting to bypassing shaping though - just using an obscure file hosting service is not... it has nothing to do with newsgroups or torrents. My example, 4shared.com (I think thats where my ROM came from), I might get full line speeds because its 2am in the morning, or because its not part of MWEBs shaping policy... I wouldn't know.

Maybe MWEB should setup a site or page that lists what is currently shaped? That way we can actively be involved in the process - I find a 10GB file I need, I go to MWEBs list, see the source is not shaped, I can then submit a ticket to MWEB mentioning this, and off I go and do my download... granted, the process is a bit tedious for the user - but most will quickly remember whats on the list and whats not if they use a specific set of sources.

 

[Kayoss]

whats the point of being on the 4mb uncapped product anymore? pay for 4mb and download at 384 speeds..
unless of course you want every single download on microsoft.com

I'm looking for a new isp

 

[whatwhat]

I want to know, when this September IPC upgrade happens and the SAIX bandwith pool is moved over the Seacom pool, what are you going to do with people that complain about getting 20kb/s speeds then? And if the upgrade goes through, and one can hopefully get 50% of your 4Mb speed on your system, how long before it gets congested again and you need to buy more IPC, which ends up in more shaping while we wait?

It just seems like an endless loop of bad planning on Mweb's part. But they shouldn't complain, 4Mb users tend to get around 20 to 50kb/s on their current shaping pools, so that means that around 15 people together get the same throughput as what one 4Mb should really expect, and have paid for. So that's 14 people's monthly subs as pure profit. It's pure genius.

 

[Chevron]

The IPC lagging behind is due to Telkom's network freeze. My contract officially ends in September. So they have till then to prove to me the IPC upgrades have improved performance.

 

[whatwhat]

The IPC lagging behind is due to Telkom's network freeze. My contract officially ends in September. So they have till then to prove to me the IPC upgrades have improved performance.

It is not like the WorldCup surprised everyone. Granted they launched their service just before the network freeze, but if I remember correctly they have had one of two IPC upgrades done before that to cater for the load. It still didn't help.

 

[Degaron]

MWEB its not that of a concern at the moment, we are quite happy with the service at the moment, it was just a frustration at that time and it made our work so much more difficult and when this kind of thing happens again is there a backup plan? but for now your unshaped offering is pretty stable.

The problem we faced is we have too branches one in Knysna and one in George and we couldint get our VPN to work with your business router as this is quite critical for our system to use between the two branches. So we had to switch over to the Internet Addict product as the telkom routers had this function. also the guy who did the install at first wasint clued up so it was a messy first day. but atleast we got it sorted out so we are quite happy with your service.

 

[GingerBeer]

Thanks as always for the insightful feedback GingerBeer. Remember that the offer for technical support is a standing one, we are ready and waiting to address technical issues as a customer.

In the meantime consider that our uncapped products were designed and priced for the man in the street. We wanted uncapped to be accessible and affordable for every South African with an Internet connection and in this regard I believe we have succeeded. I'm confident that for those customers having an uninterrupted Internet Banking service is very much a concern. We do have a product for the power users who have a primary need to download files constantly, which is called Internet Addict. Perhaps you would find this more suited to your needs? If you contact me today with your details I would be happy to arrange for you to test drive it.

I'm afraid you missed the point I was
making.

Uncapped internet was not designed for
someone who wants uninterrupted online
banking.

Whilst I appreciate the offer of a "test drive",
I have moved on from Mweb and am enjoying
greener pastures.

BTW I'm still waiting for a refund from MWEB
for money they took in error!

As they
say 'once bitten'.

 

[MWEBHelp]

Scenario B is easily identifiable as attempting to bypassing shaping though - just using an obscure file hosting service is not... it has nothing to do with newsgroups or torrents. My example, 4shared.com (I think thats where my ROM came from), I might get full line speeds because its 2am in the morning, or because its not part of MWEBs shaping policy... I wouldn't know.

Maybe MWEB should setup a site or page that lists what is currently shaped? That way we can actively be involved in the process - I find a 10GB file I need, I go to MWEBs list, see the source is not shaped, I can then submit a ticket to MWEB mentioning this, and off I go and do my download... granted, the process is a bit tedious for the user - but most will quickly remember whats on the list and whats not if they use a specific set of sources.

The problem with publishing a list is that it would simplify the task considerably for those intentionally wanting to bypass the shaping, but I will take this idea back to the business and ensure that it gets some serious consideration.

Also I would ask that you look at this from a practical point of view for a moment:

Firstly we know that services like 4shared, Rapidshare and numerous other filehosting, type sites are used extensively for peer to peer activities. We as an ISP know this to be true and we are also not in a position to examine each piece of content on it's merits, therefore we have to go with the lowest common denominator approach and manage a service in terms of it's most likely use. I suspect in this case that you were probably attempting to download a ROM for a cellphone perhaps? I found myself in the same situation not that long ago as it seems many of the custom ROM developers put their contributions on this type of 'disposable' hosting. It is an unfortunate and frustrating situation, but not one that we can do much about at this stage.

Secondly in terms of your concern about this raising a red flag, I'd be interested to see a practical example of a 10GB file thats available for download on one of these services?

 

[MWEBHelp]

I'm afraid you missed the point I was
making.

Uncapped internet was not designed for
someone who wants uninterrupted online
banking.

Whilst I appreciate the offer of a "test drive",
I have moved on from Mweb and am enjoying
greener pastures.

BTW I'm still waiting for a refund from MWEB
for money they took in error!

As they
say 'once bitten'.

I'm really sorry to hear that GingerBeer.

Every customer is valuable to us and I hope that at some point you will reconsider and give us an opportunity to change your mind.

If there was any type of billing discrepancy when you left us, please provide us with your details and I'll be more than happy to sort this out for you immediately as I know how frustrating this type of complication can be as a customer.

I am curious to know how you are providing comparitive reports on the service if you are no longer with us - do you have a friend on the service, or are you still using the service now until your notice period expires?

 

[Necuno]

Secondly in terms of your concern about this raising a red flag, I'd be interested to see a practical example of a 10GB file thats available for download on one of these services?

i'm curious is steam and msdn downloads shaped in general ?

 

[xrapidx]

The problem with publishing a list is that it would simplify the task considerably for those intentionally wanting to bypass the shaping, but I will take this idea back to the business and ensure that it gets some serious consideration.

Thats not actually a problem - you include it in your T&Cs - if someone then does actively bypass shaping they really do have no excuse, as its an openly published document.

Also I would ask that you look at this from a practical point of view for a moment:

Firstly we know that services like 4shared, Rapidshare and numerous other filehosting, type sites are used extensively for peer to peer activities. We as an ISP know this to be true and we are also not in a position to examine each piece of content on it's merits, therefore we have to go with the lowest common denominator approach and manage a service in terms of it's most likely use. I suspect in this case that you were probably attempting to download a ROM for a cellphone perhaps? I found myself in the same situation not that long ago as it seems many of the custom ROM developers put their contributions on this type of 'disposable' hosting. It is an unfortunate and frustrating situation, but not one that we can do much about at this stage.

I'm not saying don't shape this services, no matter what their use, I'm saying you can't really hold your userbase responsible for downloading from a service that isn't on your radar yet - no matter what the content they're downloading... as far as I am aware it is illegal for ISPs to monitor what users download anyway?

Secondly in terms of your concern about this raising a red flag, I'd be interested to see a practical example of a 10GB file thats available for download on one of these services?

A few months ago, think in March, I downloaded a Bluray rip of a HD Demo disc used to calibrate video and audio - I'm sure its perfectly legit as the disc consists of freely downloadable content - source was multiple files on some file host, I think it might of been rapidshare.

Also - I have an SLR - I took over 300 photo's at a track day a couple of weeks ago - say 25MB a photo - thats 7.5GB - with a 4MB line it could theoritcally 5 hours to upload - thats quicker than writing to disc and couriering to Johannesburg. I use the photograph example because I actually have a friend that prefers to work this way.

I'm sure there are many legitimate reasons for using these service - I also accept that most are probably not legit., but that should not be a concern of MWEBs?

 

[GingerBeer]

I'm really sorry to hear that GingerBeer.

Every customer is valuable to us and I hope that at some point you will reconsider and give us an opportunity to change your mind.

If there was any type of billing discrepancy when you left us, please provide us with your details and I'll be more than happy to sort this out for you immediately as I know how frustrating this type of complication can be as a customer.

I am curious to know how you are providing comparitive reports on the service if you are no longer with us - do you have a friend on the service, or are you still using the service now until your notice period expires?

Yes, I do have friends on MWEB and yes,
they all are saying the same thing and yes,
nothing is improving.

I have made several senior people at
your company aware of the billing problem
but true to form, that is also getting ignored.

It appears to be a characteristic of MWEB to
promise things in public and then forget.