Nelson Mandela

There is no honor in killing 2 year old kids, especially not in the name of "freedom".

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politi...b/en/page71639?oid=275677&sn=Detail&pid=71639

then again I don't have respect for any politician

Sad but it happened.

Had the white government given the blacks some rights and treated them better would that two year old have been in a war type situation? Don't hate the player, hate the game.

If the white government had woken up earlier many lives would have been saved. Mandela and co warned the government prior to becoming violent. It fell on deaf ears. Instead they opted to lock them up for two decades.
 
Sad but it happened.

Had the white government given the blacks some rights and treated them better would that two year old have been in a war type situation? Don't hate the player, hate the game.

If the white government had woken up earlier many lives would have been saved. Mandela and co warned the government prior to becoming violent. It fell on deaf ears. Instead they opted to lock them up for two decades.


I honestly doubt it, all the white governments in other African countries woke up earlier, and they didn't turn out okay, the reality is that for as long as the soviet union was still alive, apartheid was going to continue, because there is no way that I would trust the ANC under Moscow's influence.

If you compare the 1964 Mandela to the 1994 one then you will find a much more violent one in his youth, do yourself a favour and go read the original book "the Rivonia trial". The pictures of the MK's victims are nothing to be proud about.
 
ANC tool said:
"When we knew that we going to start on 16 December 1961, to blast the symbolic places of apartheid, like pass offices, native magistrates courts, and things like that ... post offices and ... the government offices. But we were to do it in such a way that nobody would be hurt, nobody would get killed."

So why didn't they? They instead threw bombs into dustbins on busy street corners, or limpet mines into crowded Wimpy's.

Armed struggle was inevitable anyway. The Nats made sure of that by refusing to actually engage on an intellectual level with the black intelligentsia of the day (Steve Biko and the like). They knew he'd kick their ass in a debate so they rather killed him. Disgusting fascists.

JungleBoy said:
The man is senile - hardly knows what's going on around him any more.

Sickens me how people (especially the ANC) are exploiting him. There's actually a discussion today on 702 about "Brand Madiba" and how people are trying to milk it. I disapprove of the deification, though.

R13... said:
These people are hypocrites, they claim Mandela is no god yet expect him to fix the ANC single handedly (as if even a god could achieve such a feat)

We might need Kratos...

You still fail to understand that if it had to be done... you can still be sorry for it, there is no harm in it. If you can't show remorse regardless of that then you have not gone past your acts even if by those you have united and caused "peace".

I agree. The ANC in general, and certain individuals (including that cow Winnie) are responsible for some horrific atrocities (Quatro for example) and they refuse to show genuine remorse or apologise.
 
I honestly doubt it, all the white governments in other African countries woke up earlier, and they didn't turn out okay, the reality is that for as long as the soviet union was still alive, apartheid was going to continue, because there is no way that I would trust the ANC under Moscow's influence.

If you compare the 1964 Mandela to the 1994 one then you will find a much more violent one in his youth, do yourself a favour and go read the original book "the Rivonia trial". The pictures of the MK's victims are nothing to be proud about.

Mandela was not that conciliatory in his youth yes. He was much more angry at how the government continued to murder unarmed people on a regular basis.

And those other African countries didn't turn out ok because they were never allowed any real independence, the colonizers and other western parties installed puppets they could control and continue to exploit the continent.
 
And those other African countries didn't turn out ok because they were never allowed any real independence, the colonizers and other western parties installed puppets they could control and continue to exploit the continent.

Zimbabwe is controlled by the west's puppet?
 
Mandela was not that conciliatory in his youth yes. He was much more angry at how the government continued to murder unarmed people on a regular basis.
yet the ANC killed more of its own people than the SA government did? Calling the ANC unarmed is also a bit of a lie they after all did have an 'armed struggle'. Now I'm not being apologetic or ignorant to the actions of the apartheid regime, but for some reason people feel that because the apartheid government did A therefore it justifiable for the ANC to also use violence in response. However if you look at the non violence struggles of Martin Luther King or Ghandi then Mandela's ANC is just another opportunistic movement who used the black people's conditions to further its own propaganda and goals. The UDF and the black consciousness movement did way more than the ANC ever did in fighting apartheid, they just didn't know how to advertise their propaganda properly.

And those other African countries didn't turn out ok because they were never allowed any real independence, the colonizers and other western parties installed puppets they could control and continue to exploit the continent.

nonsense, go look at African countries like Tanzania, even though I have lots of respect for Julius Neyere (mainly because of his integrity) he still decided to align himself with Moscow, the exact same can be said about Thomas Sangkara and Barkina Faso. They also did have good intentions for their country, but managed it into the ground.


Botswana is one of the few examples where an African country didn't destroy itself (it is also still under US influence). Mauritious is also a successful African country under foreign influence. Just because a country is under foreign influence doesn't necessarily mean that it is bad for that country. South Africa can benefit greatly if we trade with China and use their money to develop ourselves, however the common trend in post colonial Africa was that the politicians blow the income from exports and didn't use any of them to develop itself.

Western German was also heavy under US influence post WW2, look at where it is today, I don't buy that argument.
 
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They tried for a peaceful solution, they warned the government. What you are doing is saying mandela killed for no reason which is utter BS. If he was that kind of person we would not be living so well.

Yeah, innocents, woman, children are fair game ;)

Not to speak of all the people they killed in their camps. Their own black brethren, probably killed more than the SA government did.

But then again that falls in place with you Islamic terror condonations. You are a piece of work, a sick piece none the less.
 
All of them from both sides.

here are actually some stats on the riots only within South Africa

Die volgende skokkende inligting is op 5 Januarie verlede jaar skriftelik deur genl. Johan van der Merwe, voormalige kommissaris van polisie, aan my beskikbaar gemaak as (volgens hom) betroubare syfers vir die tydperk September 1984 tot April 1992:

1.Persone deur lede van die veiligheidsmagte tydens onluste gedood: 455
2.Persone deur opstokers gedood: 8 825
3.Persone deur die veiligheidsmagte beseer: 1 633
4.Persone deur opstokers beseer: 18 428
5.Persone deur halssnoermoorde lewendig verbrand: 406
6.Lede van die polisie wat sedert 1980 tot 1993 vermoor is: 922

http://www.beeld.com/MyBeeld/Briewe/Debat-oor-apartheid-swyg-oor-skuld-wat-die-ANC-het-20110724

The ANC was by no means an organization to be proud of and they are using the same effort that they put into that struggle to currently govern the country.
 
All of them from both sides.

Well then you acknowledge that atrocities of both sides were equally unacceptable, the difference is one side fought to make it better, the other fought to keep it the same.

It's really depressing that the ANC has become what it is but so long as the other parties we vote for lead by example and keep getting voters I'm sure it will turn around.
 
Well then you acknowledge that atrocities of both sides were equally unacceptable, the difference is one side fought to make it better, the other fought to keep it the same.

It's really depressing that the ANC has become what it is but so long as the other parties we vote for lead by example and keep getting voters I'm sure it will turn around.

I honestly wonder if the ANC wanted to make it better, at the moment they have nothing but propaganda to show for that, lets not forget that Mandela didn't have a glamorous administration, allegations of corruption started during his term. Also the nats did try with reformations during the 1980's. The tricamberial parliament was a 'solution' which failed, but you can't really accuse the nats of always wanting to keep the status qua. Having the reality of the soviet union on one side and world isolation on the other side put them in a very difficult position and we can't really say that apartheid didn't end well.
 
here are actually some stats on the riots only within South Africa



http://www.beeld.com/MyBeeld/Briewe/Debat-oor-apartheid-swyg-oor-skuld-wat-die-ANC-het-20110724

The ANC was by no means an organization to be proud of and they are using the same effort that they put into that struggle to currently govern the country.

You should read this:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/32954067/SAP-Van-der-Merwe-J-Gen-The-Conflict-of-the-Past-a-Factual-Review

That bloggers source is one bitter and quite biased given his views in the document.
 
I honestly wonder if the ANC wanted to make it better, at the moment they have nothing but propaganda to show for that, lets not forget that Mandela didn't have a glamorous administration, allegations of corruption started during his term. Also the nats did try with reformations during the 1980's. The tricamberial parliament was a 'solution' which failed, but you can't really accuse the nats of always wanting to keep the status qua. Having the reality of the soviet union on one side and world isolation on the other side put them in a very difficult position and we can't really say that apartheid didn't end well.

You mean tricameral parliament? Really? Is that what's acceptable as trying?
 
You mean tricameral parliament? Really? Is that what's acceptable as trying?

And the dismantling of some of the apartheid laws, you have to remember that the immorality act was still regarded as acceptable among the white community at the time, you weren't going to swing their views over night. Hell the KP was formed precisely because of that reason. Also the homeland solution was regarded as a solution, now sure I am not saying that it was an ideal solution and some of the solutions were retarded, but saying that the nats did absolutely nothing is simply not true.

People just don't want to find some objectivity in history, the idea that the ANC was this glamorous organization and that the nats were nothing more than slave masters isn't history it is propaganda. Both sides made mistakes and both sides did wrong, yet some people refuse to accept that.

Also the article accuses PW botha on the accounts that he was later not acquitted, after his appeal which found the TRC to be unconstitutional, so I'm not sure how factual your article is too (although most of what I'm currently reading seems accurate to my knowledge).

another 'mishaps'

It should therefore not surprise anyone that targets like the St JamesChurch, King Williams Town Golf Club, Heildeberg Tavern etc wereselected. The leadership of the APLA takes full responsibility for allthese operations. The APLA forces who carried out these operationsfollowed the directives from their commanders and those directiveswere from the highest echelons of the military leadership. We do nottherefore regret that such operations took place and there is thereforenothing to ask forgiveness f

your source is actually quite balanced.
 
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People just don't want to find some objectivity in history, the idea that the ANC was this glamorous organization and that the nats were nothing more than slave masters isn't history it is propaganda. Both sides made mistakes and both sides did wrong, yet some people refuse to accept that.

Agreed, it comes down to a balanced amount of knowledge and as is commonly seen here it's usually only the one side.
 
Agreed, it comes down to a balanced amount of knowledge and as is commonly seen here it's usually only the one side.


We should also consider that at the time laws such as the immorality act was passed black subjugation was a world wide phenomenon, when Verwoerd was in power, it was still illegal for a black and a white couple to be married in 37 of the states in America. Herman Giliomee actually wrote a very nice balanced article (I thought) in rapport last week.

Hermann *Gilio*mee

Baie politici en kommentators beskou apartheid deesdae as ’n ideologie wat uniek boos en veel meer verdrukkend was as die segregasiebeleid van voor 1948.

Soos die joernalis Piet Cillié dit in 1985 al gestel het, word die indruk gewek van Suid-Afrika as ’n mooi saamlewende, veelrassige gemeenskap wat deur diktatoriale NP-regerings verdeel en gefragmenteer is en sodoende verhinder is “om die vriendskaplike betrekkinge te ontwikkel waarheen hy op pad was”.

Volgens hierdie siening van die geskiedenis was die land ná 1948 op ’n lang ekonomiese, politieke en maatskaplike afdraande pad waarvan die agteruitgang eers in 1990 gestuit is.

Soos Cillié dink ek dit is ’n heeltemal verwronge begrip van die geskiedenis.

Hierin word ons ondersteun deur die liberale filosoof Alfred Hoernlé (wat in 1945 oorlede is) as hy skryf: “[There] is a dominant urge towards segregation, which has moulded the structure of South African society and made it what it now is.”

Die Britse historikus Herbert Butterfield waarsku tereg dat as ons ’n oordeel oor die geskiedenis probeer vel ooreenkomstig hedendaagse morele oortuigings, ons niks anders as ’n reuse-optiese illusie skep nie.

Om apartheid te verstaan, moet ons dit dus oorweeg in die lig van hoe mense dit beskou het tussen die jare 1948 en 1958, toe dié beleid ingestel is.

In uiterste gevalle word apartheid deesdae selfs vergelyk met die uitwissing van Joodse gemeenskappe in Europa deur Nazi-Duitsland tydens die Tweede Wêreldoorlog.

Die NP se apartheidsmodel was egter geskoei op die van die suidelike Amerikaanse deelstate waar segregasie teen die 1950’s nog sterk toegepas is, en nie Nazi-Duitsland nie.

In dié konteks is dit belangrik om te onthou dat “gemengde huwelike” in 1961, die jaar toe pres. Barack Obama se ma met ’n swart man van Kenia in die huwelik getree het, nog onwettig was in 30 van die VSA se 50 deelstate. Tien jaar later, in 1971, het Louisiana ’n wet aanvaar wat bepaal dat ’n mens met een swart voorouer uit 32 as swart geklassifiseer moet word.

Apartheid was ’n uitloper van ’n segrasiebeleid wat reeds sedert die Anglo-Boereoorlog as regeringsbeleid gevestig was en dus geensins radikaal nuut nie.

Dit wil nie sê dat die NP se apartheidsbeleid wel in bepaalde opsigte duidelik verskil het van die segregasie wat dit voorafgegaan het nie.

Vóór 1948 het opeenvolgende regerings swart “reservate” as ’n bykomende deel van die landsadministrasie beskou en swart mense se reg op ’n baie beperkte vorm van politieke verteenwoordiging erken.

Die NP het ook verder gegaan in sy segregasiebeleid deur sekere vorms van skeiding en diskriminasie tussen wit en swart ook op sosiale verkeer tussen wit en bruin, asook tussen wit en Indiër van toepassing te maak.

Die vernaamste hiervan was die afskaffing van bruin stemreg, die opdwing van aparte woongebiede en die klassifikasie van mense in bepaalde groepe. Die paswette, wat teen 1948 reeds bestaan het, is daarna veel strenger op swart mense toegepas.

Die oorheersing van ander bevolkingsgroepe was dus ná 1948 strawwer en meer stelselmatig, maar nie wesenlik anders as voorheen nie.

Wat die ekonomie betref, word die aanspraak soms gemaak dat die land sonder apartheid vinniger sou kon gegroei het as die 4,5% per jaar waarmee dit tussen 1948 en 1981 gegroei het.

Teoreties is dit seker moontlik, maar net as beleggers, binnelands en buitelands, daarvan oortuig was dat die land stabiel sou bly.

In die apartheidstyd het baie beleggers gemeen die NP se beleidsraamwerk is voordelig vir groei. Hulle het dieselfde geglo van Botswana, wat ná onafhanklikwording ’n konserwatiewe ekonomiese en maatskaplike beleid gevolg het.

In sy outobiografie beskryf Nelson Mandela die Vryheidsmanifes as ’n revolusionêre dokument wat nie sonder ’n “radikale verandering” aan die ekonomiese en politieke strukture ingestel sou kon word nie. So ’n radikale ommekeer sou waarskynlik ’n groot uittog van beleggers tot gevolg gehad het – die teenoorgestelde as wat die apartheidsregering vermag het.

Maar wat sou gebeur het as die Verenigde Party (VP) nie die 1948-verkiesing verloor het nie? Sou ’n meer liberale beleid van ’n nie-rassige gekwalifiseerde stem (aan mense met ’n sekere opvoedingsvlak of vaste eiendom van ’n sekere waarde) meer suksesvol gewees het?

Liberale van daardie era het geargumenteer dat so ’n stelsel sou lei tot ’n meer gematigde politieke klimaat en dat gekwalifiseerde swart kiesers uiteindelik deur persoonlike belange, eerder as rasse- of etniese identiteit, gelei sou word wanneer hulle stem. Daar is egter geen voorbeeld van enige veelrassige land waar dinge só gewerk het nie.

In Suid-Afrika sou ’n gekwalifiseerde stemreg waarskynlik nie stabiliteit gebring het nie. Die vlak waarop swart mense vir stemreg kwalifiseer, sou waarskynlik altyd hoogs omstrede gebly het en spanning tussen wit gemeenskappe net vererger het.

As die vlak waarop mense vir stemreg kwalifiseer te vinnig verlaag is, sou daar heel waarskynlik gou ’n regering aan die bewind gekom het wat ’n vorm van “staatskapitalisme” of sosialisme probeer instel het, met dodelike ekonomiese gevolge.

Wat Suid-Afrika ná 1948 gekry het, was natuurlik nie sosialisme of ’n liberale demokrasie nie, maar apartheid.

Daarmee saam het die NP-regering ’n konserwatiewe ekonomiese beleid gehandhaaf wat die grondslag gelê het vir bestendige ekonomiese groei. Hy het begrotingsoorskotte gebruik om skuld af te betaal en buitensporige looneise van wit werkers verwerp.

Hoewel dr. H.F. Verwoerd se Bantoe-onderwys tereg gekritiseer is omdat die besteding aan wit en swart so ongelyk was, het swart geletterdheid tog aansienlik verbeter.

Tussen 1950 en 1970 het die getal swart kinders op skool met drie keer vermenigvuldig. Voorts was swart- en wit-leerplanne basies dieselfde.

In die eerste helfte van die 1960’s het die Suid-Afrikaanse ekonomie teen gemiddeld 6% per jaar gegroei, inflasie was 2% en grootskaalse beleggings het ingestroom.

Die land was suksesvol genoeg dat die nuustydskrif Time Verwoerd in Augustus 1960 kon beskryf as “one of the ablest *white leaders Africa has ever produced”.

Uiteindelik het apartheid Suid-Afrika egter ekonomies duur te staan gekom, veral in die vorm van gebrekkige onderwys vir swart en bruin kinders, ’n onproduktiewe arbeidsmag, ’n gebrek aan vaardighede en ’n groot omset van werkers weens die reuse-omvang van trekarbeid.

In die 1950’s en 1960’s was dié skade egter nog beperk omdat die vervaardigingsektor klein en ongekompliseerd was. Dit was eers in die vroeë 1970’s, toe die vervaardigingsektor sterk begin uitbrei het, dat dié gevolge duidelik sou word.

Verwoerd word deesdae gebrandmerk as ’n “bose genie” wat apartheid so te sê eiehandig uitgedink en toegepas het. Stephen Mulholland, voormalige redakteur van Financial Mail, noem hom “one of history’s monsters” – saam met Saddam Hoesein in dieselfde kategorie as die massamoordenaars Josef Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong en Pol Pot. Maar in die 1960’s het toonaangewende historici – wat nie voorstanders van apartheid was nie – baie anders oor hom gevoel.

Die uitstaande liberale historikus C.W. de Kiewiet vergelyk hom in 1963 met Charles de Gaulle, “the stern, headstrong but deeply imaginative leader of France”.

Argumente dat ekonomiese groei in dié tydperk swart mense niks in die sak gebring het nie, hou ook nie steek nie.

Hoewel die welvaartgaping tussen swart en wit groot gebly het en swart mense se vooruitgang boonop deur apartheidsmaatreëls aan bande gelê is, het die besteebare inkomste van swart, bruin en Indiërs in die 1960’s en 1970’s vinniger gegroei as dié van wit mense, hoewel van ’n baie lae basis.

Dit was natuurlik skrale troos vir mense in die swart reservate met wie dit broekskeur gegaan het. Vir hulle was daar egter steeds hoop op werk, al was dit vir ’n baie klein loon.

J.L. Sadie het bereken dat 73,6% van die nuwe toetreders tot die arbeidsmark in 1965 in die formele sektor werk gekry het, meer as ooit tevore. In 1970 het dit tot 76,6% gestyg, maar daarna geval tot 43,3% in 1998. Vandag is dit nóg laer.

Geskiedskrywers staan onder die verpligting om die ondenkbare te dink. As ’n mens oor apartheid wil oordeel, moet ’n mens daarom die volgende ondenkbare stellings oorweeg:

* Ná die Tweede Wêreldoorlog kon Suid-Afrika ’n liberale demokrasie geword het of die land kon 25 jaar lank teen 5% per jaar groei. Albei kon nie gelyk gebeur nie.
* Snelle rasse-integrasie kon plaasvind of die land kon vir 25 jaar redelike stabiliteit beleef. Albei kon nie gelyk gebeur nie.
* Die staat kon voortgaan om laegraadse goudmyne met goedkoop swart arbeid winsgewend te hou terwyl hulle reuse-belastingbydraes tot die staatskas maak of hulle kon swart vakbonde wettig. Albei kon nie gelyk gebeur nie.

Nie een van dié stellings kan bewys word nie, maar dit beteken steeds nie dat jy nie die ondenkbare moet dink nie.
http://www.rapport.co.za/Weekliks/Nuus/Apartheid-Was-dit-dan-net-boos-20120623

I doubt you will find an English version anywhere.

I find it ironic that Time Magazine voted Verwoerd in 1960 as one of the greatest leaders of the decade and in 1994 they voted Mandela into the exact same position.

If you want to judge apartheid then judge it by the morality of its own time as Gilliomee said.
 
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