No 'theatrics' for Mbeki

dlk001 said:
Maybe lets ask Bobby what he means by "white government". Does he mean;

1. A white leader
2. A government that is predominantly white, lead by a white person
3. etc
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Why ask me? And why do you guys keep banging on this issue? Who cares whether the government is pink, purple, blue or green - as long as they do what they're supposed to do as competently and with maximum accountability, it shouldn't matter. We don't have such a government, and we don't have a willing enough voter base to get rid of such a government, meaning the **** will continue (and probably get worse) unabated.

For the record, the government is currently ANC led. There are blacks/non-blacks in the ANC aren't there? As for the US, Condoleeza is black, so even though the government has black people, it is currently representatively-wise white. But then again the top people in the US are probably a lot less obsessed with race than this government and the general electorate.
 
BobbyMac said:
iMonga: what problem's of the people can Jacob Zuma fix? As I see it, the people are giving him sympathy money by contributing to his friends of jz fund.
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That I would also like to know what problems is JZ capable of fixing?

Anyway as for his supporters, they believe JZ policies (which I'm yet to find out and how they actually differ from Mbeki's) will put the end to the enrichment of the few black elite.
 
JZ has policies? But he's not even currently in the running for anything other than maybe ANC president.
 
BobbyMac said:
JZ has policies? But he's not even currently in the running for anything other than maybe ANC president.
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Exactly BobbyMac, hence I've said I would love to find out what these policies are, I have had strong debates with a few JZ supporters and they believe he has policies!
 
BobbyMac said:
Why ask me? And why do you guys keep banging on this issue? Who cares whether the government is pink, purple, blue or green - as long as they do what they're supposed to do as competently and with maximum accountability, it shouldn't matter. We don't have such a government, and we don't have a willing enough voter base to get rid of such a government, meaning the **** will continue (and probably get worse) unabated.

For the record, the government is currently ANC led. There are blacks/non-blacks in the ANC aren't there? As for the US, Condoleeza is black, so even though the government has black people, it is currently representatively-wise white. But then again the top people in the US are probably a lot less obsessed with race than this government and the general electorate.
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Most black people care about race BobbyMac, especially the older black generation because they lived a life where they were reminded on a daily basis they are black and inferior. Some of us do wish that since 94 that attitude would have changed but that's not the case.

Race especially in South Africa has come to represent prosperity so it's not suprising to see those who have not prospered putting more focus on it.

Of course the US is among the world's richest nations if not the richest and has had a longer time to deal with race issues, no wonder they can deal with them in a less volatile way than South Africans!
 
BobbyMac said:
Why ask me? And why do you guys keep banging on this issue?
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I thought you had a theory about the average SA voter who will never vote for a "white government" again. Since I thought that came from you, I was also thinking, maybe, its a good idea to understand what is a "white government".

Since asking that question is possibly banging on the issue, I retract the question and leave the theory alone.
 
BobbyMac said:
...if people are unhappy with particular policies not directly applicable to them (as with the Zuma fanbase), then it is emotive. The support for Zuma stems from his sacking as SA deputy president. Zuma emotionally plays the crowds - it is what he does and the result is an emotionally charged fan base. Zuma is a superstar in the eyes of his millions of fans. The big question is why ?
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Zuma is the deputy president of the ANC. To suggest that he got the support from his sacking as deputy president is not the truth. How could he have ascended to the second highest position in the ANC without the support ?
 
Bageloo said:
Zuma is the deputy president of the ANC. To suggest that he got the support from his sacking as deputy president is not the truth. How could he have ascended to the second highest position in the ANC without the support ?
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Bageloo: Zuma's current support is extremely emotionally charged because he was sacked - that was my point - not that he didn't have support before. Besides, if popular support was a reason for people to make it in the ANC, Tony Yengeni would be a much bigger player than he is/was.
 
BobbyMac said:
Bageloo: Zuma's current support is extremely emotionally charged because he was sacked - that was my point - not that he didn't have support before. Besides, if popular support was a reason for people to make it in the ANC, Tony Yengeni would be a much bigger player than he is/was.
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Of course his supporters believe he's been treated unfairly, surely they have to be emotional about that?
 
BobbyMac said:
Bageloo: Zuma's current support is extremely emotionally charged because he was sacked - that was my point - not that he didn't have support before. Besides, if popular support was a reason for people to make it in the ANC, Tony Yengeni would be a much bigger player than he is/was.
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I thought you implied that he has got the support from mainly sympathisers. In fact I think it's the opposite.
Zuma has lost most of his support during his ordeals except for his traditional homebase KZN.
 
Bageloo said:
I thought you implied that he has got the support from mainly sympathisers. In fact I think it's the opposite.
Zuma has lost most of his support during his ordeals except for his traditional homebase KZN.
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Well, there's no quantifiable way of being able to determine that so it is just pure conjecture. He does, however, seem to enjoy more support than T-Bone - remember when Zuma had to step in to calm the crowds during a T-Bone address?
 
dlk001 said:
Is/was Tony Yengeni more popular than Zuma?
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He certainly has a lot of support - and he is a convicted criminal. But I don't think he has more support than Zuma. That being said, my point was if popularity was an indicator of ANC rank, Tony would be up there near Zuma - which he isn't and never was. So popularity (and by that definition fans and support base) doesn't guarantee position in the ANC or government. To me it definitely seems it's which side of the fence you lobby on - and if you're a woman in T-Bones favour or not.
 
BobbyMac said:
Well, there's no quantifiable way of being able to determine that so it is just pure conjecture. He does, however, seem to enjoy more support than T-Bone - remember when Zuma had to step in to calm the crowds during a T-Bone address?
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Again where was that ...? KZN
 
BobbyMac said:
That being said, my point was if popularity was an indicator of ANC rank, Tony would be up there near Zuma - which he isn't and never was. So popularity (and by that definition fans and support base) doesn't guarantee position in the ANC or government.
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How popular was Tony Yengeni? A people's person?

My theory is that Zuma was ANC's tool for KZN as well as a generally accepted candidate elsewhere. Yengeni is Xhosa.
 
dlk001 said:
How popular was Tony Yengeni? A people's person?

My theory is that Zuma was ANC's tool for KZN as well as a generally accepted candidate elsewhere. Yengeni is Xhosa.
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Aaah. Now we're getting somewhere - so tribal lines is a consideration?
 
BobbyMac said:
Aaah. Now we're getting somewhere - so tribal lines is a consideration?
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Well, peace was needed in KZN and Yengeni, being Xhosa had less understanding of the situation there than a Zuma. My theory!

So, is that about tribal lines or being strategic at finding the best person for the problem?
 
dlk001 said:
Well, peace was needed in KZN and Yengeni, being Xhosa had less understanding of the situation there than a Zuma. My theory!!!
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Plausible. But anyway, my theory seems to be more and more plausible now too ;)
 
BobbyMac said:
He certainly has a lot of support - and he is a convicted criminal. But I don't think he has more support than Zuma. That being said, my point was if popularity was an indicator of ANC rank, Tony would be up there near Zuma - which he isn't and never was. So popularity (and by that definition fans and support base) doesn't guarantee position in the ANC or government. To me it definitely seems it's which side of the fence you lobby on - and if you're a woman in T-Bones favour or not.
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if you can remember Zuma's rise to power in the ANC, you might remember that he has always had grassroots support. Not so long ago he was just a chairman of the mere Natal southern region. Because of the grassroots support, he was able to ascend to provincial chairman, national chairman and deputy president in a very short period of time. So to cut a long story short, Zuma had nothing (not even acedemic education) but he was catapulted to the top mainly by his charisma and the support amonst the rank and file.
 
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