No 'theatrics' for Mbeki

[BobbyMac]

I think as a society, depending on our social differences, there will always be theories and perceptions against each other. From my experience, I have no reason to believe that the "average South African voters" don't want a white government in power ever again. Voting for ANC does not mean "average South African voters" don't want a white government in power ever again.

My theory is that people will continue to vote for a party that they feel is best at addressing their diverse needs. Classification of "average South African voters" under 1,2,3 is just going to open a never ending political and emotional debate. I couldn't even classify my family, relatives and friends under 1,2 and 3.

You're not an average South African voter are you? In fact, you're probably an educated, capable and rational person able to make decisions. People living in shacks have tunnel vision when it comes to elections - they will blindly follow their Heroes (and the ANC are their heroes) because it is they who liberated them, promised them houses and keeps their hopes alive of a better future. People who develop the ability to see through politicians become their greatest critics, because a politician is driven only by his own greed. Ever. And the ANC is incompetent on every level, even the people it has in power are power hungry sh!ts looking to maximise their money and power. So if the people wants to overwhelmingly keep them in power then there is less and less evidence that the people are voting on issues rather than emotionally charged ideologies. Once again, Zimbabwe is a case in point.

 

[marine1]

You're not an average South African voter are you? In fact, you're probably an educated, capable and rational person able to make decisions.

And yet he still is a die hard ANC supporter ??

 

[BobbyMac]

And yet he still is a die hard ANC supporter ??

For the black middle class the ANC actually does quite a lot. BEE is like a treasure chest for the black middle and upper class, and under the ANC the black middle class has been quite a successful bunch. Why mess with a winning combination?

 

[dlk001]

You're not an average South African voter are you? In fact, you're probably an educated, capable and rational person able to make decisions. People living in shacks have tunnel vision when it comes to elections - they will blindly follow their Heroes .

Hi Bobby,

I am getting a feeling that your perception of the mind of the "average SA voter" seems to differ a lot from my experience. Maybe, your experience living and engaging with the poor people differs to mine.

I grew up with people who live in shacks. Back home, in the Eastern Cape, the average black person in my surrounding community and home is uneducated. I have no reason to think of them as less capable and rational than I am to make decisions. In fact, the more time I sit and engage with them in conversations, the more I realize that I take a lot of things for granted whereas those things matter the most to them and vice-versa.

Hadn't I had the opportunity to have degrees and yet still exposed to the humble environment around me, I would be equally less capable and irrational at making decisions that matter to them.

Fortunately, we learn a lot from each other.

 

[dlk001]

And yet he still is a die hard ANC supporter ??

I'm only a die hard Newcastle United and Orlando Pirates supporter. Guess we always learn something new about each other. The only thing I 'support' are those football clubs.

 

[dlk001]

For the black middle class the ANC actually does quite a lot. BEE is like a treasure chest for the black middle and upper class, and under the ANC the black middle class has been quite a successful bunch. Why mess with a winning combination?

I thought the perception from all sectors in the country was that BEE was for the elite and not certainly not benefiting "poor", "black middle" or "upper class". There are many theories and myths written about the surge of the 'black middle" or "upper class" and I think affirmative action comes across much more than BEE. In fact, a recent study by UCT Unilever Institute and Research Surveys came with this conclusion.

"The benefits of Black Economic Empowerment (BEE) have not yet trickled down to ordinary South Africans and currently only favour the privileged few, say the overwhelming majority of middle-class black South Africans.........."

 

[BobbyMac]

dlk001: I don't want to get into the BEE/AA stuff right now, but AA and BEE have most definitely led to a surge in the upliftment of a select few - most notably the top and part of the black middle class. Access to BEE type share schemes has become quite a popular investment method as well. In any case, gov policies (AA and BEE) are working for these groups, but unfortunately very much against the extremely poor in the country. There is very little chance of a shack dweller to get into a house in the near future, and the chances are only somewhat increased over a longer time frame. The bottom line is that a poor person in South Africa is extremely poor, most likely under-educated and relies on gov to feed them - and the benefits of BEE/AA are not trickling down to them and will require a complete policy change to uplift these groups.

 

[iMonga]

dlk001: here's a few little theories I have about average South African voters

1. They don't want a white government in power ever again
2. There are tribal factions at play that demand higher loyalty than anything else
3. The ANC is not seen as a political party, but as the liberators.

Point number 3 is the reason people keep voting the ANC in. Screw the bread and butter issues, it is simply put a loyalty thing with the liberation leaders. The exact same pattern of voting is seen in Zimbabwe - despite a crackpot leader, the party enjoys an overwhelming majority at every election. Even though the bread and butter issues are completely screwed up in Zimbabwe, the people keep voting Zanu-PF. It is the same here - the liberators are seen and held in the same esteem. I frequently go and read the messages on the Freinds of Jacob Zuma website, not because I'm a Zuma supporter, but because I enjoy seeing where his supporter's think the problems in this country are. It is incredible what kind of support the people in this country give Jacob Zuma, despite the glaring evidence that he is a very stupid man, and quite an incapable one at that. Despite all this, the people love him to the point of almost placing him above their religion. And when you start thinking of your politicians as Superstars, then you will never see the bad in them - but only ever the good. Similarly you will downplay any and all criticism of them, irrespective of facts to the contrary. And that is how a failing and entirely incompetent government remains in place - and will always remain in place until a full new generation that does not view the ANC in such a light makes up the majority vote.

And that is why as long as the "legacy" of apartheid is kept alive, the vote will remain emotive.

Ahh Bobby Mac I like theories,

1. The township black person distrusts a white person and of course then as a group they do not see how a white government would understand their problems and actually be willing to help them.

2. Tribal factions are not a big deal anymore they come up once in a while in petty issues but of course some politicians do exploit the tribal thing.

3. Yes of course the ANC biggest achievement is liberation and as a political party they have got a lot to learn.


You should remember most Zuma supporters are the masses who are unhappy with Mbeki and often their biggest criticism of Mbeki is that he doesn't 'listen' to them. Let me put it this way, for the so called average voter if they have to choose between a white political party and a black political party, it's likely to be emotive as you put it and personally I respect their emotive reasons for that, I personally didn't suffer as much as they did during the apartheid days, I was just too young to realise what's going on. But if they have to choose between Mbeki and Zuma then it's bread andf butter issues!

As for Zimbabwe comparisons I don't buy them!

 

[BobbyMac]

I was just too young to realise what's going on. But if they have to choose between Mbeki and Zuma then it's bread andf butter issues!

They're in the same party. If the ANC was going to split it would have happened already. JZ will never be cast opposite Mbeki - and in any case, for the SA presidential candidacy it is only possible with a constitutional amendment. And JZ supporters' unhappiness with Mbeki is completely emotive.

As for Zimbabwe comparisons I don't buy them!

I wasn't selling them, I was pointing out what emotive voting is capable of.

 

[iMonga]

They're in the same party. If the ANC was going to split it would have happened already. JZ will never be cast opposite Mbeki - and in any case, for the SA presidential candidacy it is only possible with a constitutional amendment. And JZ supporters' unhappiness with Mbeki is completely emotive.
I wasn't selling them, I was pointing out what emotive voting is capable of.

No, JZ and Mbeki is not emotive, the Zuma camp believes Mbeki's policies are benefitting the elite black few at their expense. Strangely enough most people wil agree with that.

 

[dlk001]

Ahh Bobby Mac I like theories,

1. The township black person distrusts a white person and of course then as a group they do not see how a white government would understand their problems and actually be willing to help them.

Sticking to theories,

1. Do we think USA could ever have a black government? Is it a black and white political issue or simply an issue of demographics and representativity?

At what stage in the future would SA have a "white government" that represents the demographics of a country that are biased to black people?

 

[iMonga]

Sticking to theories,

1. Do we think USA could ever have a black government? Is it a black and white political issue or simply an issue of demographics and representativity?

At what stage in the future would SA have a "white government" that represents the demographics of a country that are biased to black people?

US won't have a black president, I suppose that's emotive as well.

What do you mean ? "represents the demographics of a country"??? Do u mean a colour blind 'white government'??

 

[BobbyMac]

dlk001: no, SA will never have a white government again - it;s representatively impossible. The US electoral system is massively diffferent to ours, but representatively a white person will probably remain in power for some time still.

iMonga: if people are unhappy with particular policies not directly applicable to them (as with the Zuma fanbase), then it is emotive. The support for Zuma stems from his sacking as SA deputy president. Zuma emotionally plays the crowds - it is what he does and the result is an emotionally charged fan base. Zuma is a superstar in the eyes of his millions of fans. The big question is why ?

 

[icyrus]

At what stage in the future would SA have a "white government" that represents the demographics of a country that are biased to black people?

Please explain to me why everything in this country must now "represent the demographics of the country"? What ever happened to having the best people for the job? We are all South Africans, why divide us for no reason? How are we ever meant to move forward with this black and white attitude.

US won't have a black president, I suppose that's emotive as well.

You may have missed that one of their current candidates is black. But please feel free to explain why you believe they wont have a black president and on what you base this on.

 

[dlk001]

Please explain to me why everything in this country must now "represent the demographics of the country"? What ever happened to having the best people for the job? We are all South Africans, why divide us for no reason? How are we ever meant to move forward with this black and white attitude.

I think you are off the point and quickly jumping to conclusions. Bobby has thrown his theory and we are debating it.

 

[iMonga]

dlk001: no, SA will never have a white government again - it;s representatively impossible. The US electoral system is massively diffferent to ours, but representatively a white person will probably remain in power for some time still.

iMonga: if people are unhappy with particular policies not directly applicable to them (as with the Zuma fanbase), then it is emotive. The support for Zuma stems from his sacking as SA deputy president. Zuma emotionally plays the crowds - it is what he does and the result is an emotionally charged fan base. Zuma is a superstar in the eyes of his millions of fans. The big question is why ?

No, Zuma had support before he was sacked, as I said Zuma's support came because he was a sympathetic ear to people's problems.

Policies not directly applicable to them ??? Why would the policies not be applicable to them ?

 

[iMonga]

I think you are off the point and quickly jumping to conclusions. Bobby has thrown his theory and we are debating it.

heheheheh to quickly jumping to conclusions

 

[iMonga]

Please explain to me why everything in this country must now "represent the demographics of the country"? What ever happened to having the best people for the job? We are all South Africans, why divide us for no reason? How are we ever meant to move forward with this black and white attitude.

You may have missed that one of their current candidates is black. But please feel free to explain why you believe they wont have a black president and on what you base this on.

Yep I know they have a black candidate, the republican's history is what convinces me the guy won't win the candidacy. Am willing to bet on that too!

 

[dlk001]

US won't have a black president, I suppose that's emotive as well.

What do you mean ? "represents the demographics of a country"??? Do u mean a colour blind 'white government'??

Maybe lets ask Bobby what he means by "white government". Does he mean;

1. A white leader
2. A government that is predominantly white, lead by a white person
3. etc

 

[BobbyMac]

iMonga: what problem's of the people can Jacob Zuma fix? As I see it, the people are giving him sympathy money by contributing to his friends of jz fund.