Only names that "make us have nightmares" will be changed

[Moederloos]

What do you call it when Xhosa's do not like Zulus because of racial differences?

Uhm, word is on the tip of my tongue ....

 

[Darth Garth]

Most blacks in SA won't vote for Zulus..

It shows how very little some of you know about the rest of S.A outside your gated suburbs but perhaps you need to look at the KZN province and ask yourself a few simple questions.

a) So which black tribal group dominates the province
b) Now who runs the province based on votes
c) Is Deputy ANC President Jacob Zuma a Xhosa ???.

So leave the tribal insights for the colonial times ... it is rather irrelevent today.

 

[Moederloos]

It shows how very little some of you know about the rest of S.A outside your gated suburbs but perhaps you need to look at the KZN province and ask yourself a few simple questions.

a) So which black tribal group dominates the province
b) Now who runs the province based on votes
c) Is Deputy ANC President Jacob Zuma a Xhosa ???.

So leave the tribal insights for the colonial times ... it is rather irrelevent today.

Why is there so much violence in KZN ?

 

[j4ck455]

The same set of reasons white people voted NP and for it's Apartheid policies never mind the damage it did to the country.

You incorrectly and offensively imply that white people are all the same and always voted for the NP, or do you really believe that there was only one political party back then?

 

[Moederloos]

You incorrectly and offensively imply that white people are all the same and always voted for the NP, or do you really believe that there was only one political party back then?

Amazing really, that the same people voted "yes" in the referendum, aint it?
Also amazing how many of those people now feel they should have cast a "no" vote.

 

[Fudzy]

I'm interested, what parties were there during apartheid era South Africa that were considered legal and sought the abolishment of the regime?

 

[Moederloos]

I am too young to know - but do not forget the NP themselves eventually did abolish the "regime".

 

[j4ck455]

Amazing really, that the same people voted "yes" in the referendum, aint it?
Also amazing how many of those people now feel they should have cast a "no" vote.

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly.

If I could go back in time, I would not change my referendum vote, Apartheid was wrong whichever way one looks at it.

Just like the ANC regime's AA and BEE Apartheid against young white people is wrong considering that the young white people of today were not even elligible to vote during the Apartheid years.

The ANC's name changing is yet another attempt to obliterate anything even vaguely or historically "white", just ask why "white" names must be replaced with "black" names and why places cannot have the two names alongside each other.

 

[Nick333]

The same set of reasons white people voted NP and for it's Apartheid policies never mind the damage it did to the country.

True. It was wrong then and its wrong now.

 

[kilo39]

I'm interested, what parties were there during apartheid era South Africa that were considered legal and sought the abolishment of the regime?

No white parties necessarily sought the 'abolishment' of the regime: as the regime was 'democratically' elected.

'White' english opposition parties fought for abolishment of bad laws: however the english vote was always tempered against the afrikaans vote since the beginnings of this country.

Democratic Alliance (South Africa)
(3rd ancestor party 1959-75): The Progressive Party, was founded in 1959 when liberal members seceded from the United Party. They could not agree with the inability of the UP to present an alternative to the National Party's apartheid policy. The PP emphasized constitutional reform, a Bill of Rights, an independent judiciary and the evolution towards federalism. These reform proposals were combined with advocacy of a free market economy. In 1961 only Helen Suzman was elected in parliament. For 13 years she was the only opponent of racial discrimination and other apartheid regime's abuses in the whites-only parliament, fighting against detention without trial, pass laws, influx control etc. From 1971 Colin Eglin was the party leader, without being a member of parliament himself. In 1974 the party won seven seats.
-
(5th ancestor party 1977-89): Two years later dissident UP members formed the Committee for a United Opposition, that joined the PRP to form the Progressive Federal Party. The PFP drew support mainly from liberal English-speaking white South Africans, as owing to South Africa's apartheid laws, its membership was limited to the country's whites. The PFP was derided by right-wing whites, who claimed its initials stood for 'Packing for Perth', on account of the many white liberal supporters of the 'Progs' who were emigrating to Australia.

Frederik van Zyl Slabbert, PFP leader since 1979, resigned from parliament in 1986 because it had, in his view, become irrelevant. Later he formed the Institute for a Democratic Alternative for South Africa (IDASA).

Black Sash
The Black Sash was a non-violent white women's resistance organization founded in 1955 in South Africa by Jean Sinclair. The Black Sash initially campaigned against the removal of Coloured or mixed race voters from the voters' roll in the Cape Province by the National Party government. As the apartheid system began to reach into every aspect of South African life, Black Sash members demonstrated against the Pass Laws and the introduction of other apartheid legislation. Its members "used the relative safety of their privileged racial classification to speak out against the erosion of human rights in the country. Their striking black sashes were worn as a mark of mourning and to protest against the succession of unjust laws. But they were not only on the streets. Volunteers spent many hours in the national network of advice offices and in the monitoring of courts and pass offices." (Speech by Marcella Naidoo, National Director of the Black Sash, June 2005)

Jan Smuts
Field Marshal Jan Christiaan Smuts, OM, CH, PC, ED, KC, FRS (May 24, 1870 – September 11, 1950) was a prominent South African and British Commonwealth statesman, military leader, and philosopher. In addition to various cabinet appointments, he served as Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa from 1919 until 1924 and from 1939 until 1948. He served as a British Field Marshal in both the First World War[1] and the Second World War.

As Prime Minister, he opposed a majority of Afrikaners that wished to continue and further the de facto Apartheid of the inter-war years. After the Second World War, he established and supported the Fagan Commission, which advocated the abandonment of all segregation in South Africa. However, Smuts lost the 1948 general election before he could implement the suggestion, and died in 1950, just as de jure Apartheid was being implemented.

YES, Frederik van Zyl Slabbert the leader of Opposition stood up in Parliament and told them he was sick of their bullsh#t and resigned.

-
There were dozens of groups and 'parties' that stood for black (equal) rights: not least the Communist Party of South Africa (which [-]at that time[/-] in the beginning was largely white.)

The Communist Party of South Africa first came to prominence during the armed Rand Rebellion by white mineworkers in 1922. The large mining concerns, facing labour shortages and wage pressures, had announced their intention of liberalizing the rigid colour bar within the mines and elevate some blacks to minor supervisory positions. (The vast majority of white miners mainly held supervisory positions over the laboring black miners.) Despite having nominaly opposed racialism from its inception, the CPSA supported the white miners in their call to preserve wages and the colour bar with the slogan "Workers of the world, unite and fight for a white South Africa!". With the failure of the rising, in part due to black workers failing to strike, the Communist Party was forced by Comintern to adopt the Native Republic thesis which stipulated that South Africa was a country belonging to the Natives, that is, the Blacks. The Party thus reoriented itself at its 1924 Party Congress towards organising black workers and "Africanising" the party. By 1928, 1600 of the party's 1750 members were Black. In 1929, the party adopted a "strategic line" which held that "The most direct line of advance to socialism runs through the mass struggle for majority rule". By 1948 the Party had officially abandoned the Native Republic policy.

 

[lsuacner]

Suggesting that whites have justification for an armed struggle against the ANC government is just a tad disproportionate.

I see white people with nothing to lose, white people who before were relatively wealthy and the losses they have suffered make deeper wounds as a result than it would have, had they had nothing before. Financial losses, due to AA does have an impact on personal well-being, that is what will create a water-shed moment in the future.
In a democracy everyone should have an equally loud voice, do white people have a voice? White people are dismissed and taunted by the ANC, the ANC is a racist organisation and that much is clear.
It would certainly get the attention of the ANC if ANC tactics were used against them, as they ignore dialogue and dismiss critic and suggestions, often in a very arrogant way. There are no grounds for an armed struggle today, though there are grounds to prepare for one. It would have done the Zim farmers good if they were prepared properly.
- Move money out of the country.
- Get external funding and support.
- Ensure that measures are in place for quick deployment of forceful measures.

I don't believe in the tactics the ANC used, as innocent people have been hurt. I think that if any force is to be used, it should be targeted and considered. Ramifications of using force should be planned and anticipated.
In order to clarify, I do not support violence, but I do see indicators which might change my opinion in the future. The ANC must be aware of that, they should address the problem through diplomacy before a water-shed does moment occur.

I think I understand what you are saying, but it sounds a lot as if you are saying that you would rather see this country fail than live under a black government regardless of whether or not they are doing their jobs properly. It would help the cause of open dialogue if people put a little more thought into expressing themselves clearly. You should know that people will interpret what you say to reflect what they believe you are thinking. Why make it easier for them?

I want to see this country fail as retribution, as the government has made my future prospects here rather bleak. I do not have respect for "dead wood"/complacency and would rather have it burn. It is selfish of me and the ANC which does not hold my personal well-being in high esteem either.

If they were doing their jobs properly by my standards, I would vote for them. I don't care if its a black or white party, if Trevor Manual or Tokyo Sekwale ran for president I would vote for them over the DA or FF+ immediately.

I believe the opinions that Jozi, tibby or Fudzy hold of me are generally incorrect, I will not censor myself for their benefit. They will come around sooner or later. They do not usually answer rebuffs, either because I'm correct or because they do not share the same patience for me as I have for them.

 

[LoneGunman]

this country is failing, and disintegrating, regardless of the ethnic identity of the current government.

The racial aspects are irrelevant, and should stay irrelevant. All thats important is whether or not this
country is being governed effectively, efficiently, decently (however you interpret that) and well, for all citizens.

Using that criteria, its clear that this current government is failing on multiple levels.

Furthermore, it has used up and exhausted much of the global goodwill and positive PR from previous times
- which was mostly created by Mandela and his principled stand against the previous regime.

The current government has created ... what exactly, in terms of a better life for all?

There are groups and factions, in many countries, who have gone to war for much less than
what the current ANC government has done to this country, since 1994.

The ANC attempts to cloud and confuse the issue, by attempting to link any anti-Government
activity, with 'racism' - as if it is the sole arbiter of what constitutes 'correct' thinking or behavior.

And trying to smear anti Government opponents with the 'racism' label, is very clever, but its
also quite retarded and simplistic - therefore, to sidestep this bogus idea - anyone who wants to
effectively discuss the peaceful overthrow, for example, of this government, or put forward
a genuinely solid anti-Government point of view - should stringently
avoid any attempts to bring 'race' into the issue at all.

Its about the economy, the safety and security of all citizens, the decent distribution of wealth
done efficiently, and the good standing of this country on the world stage.

Only racists, bring 'race' into the debate. Only racists attempt to divide this nation into defined
race groups, and only racists spread the idea of certain races being 'real' citizens, and other
'races'' being somehow not real citizens.

One can quite easily and legally argue for, and peacefully work towards overthrowing this Government, while staying
within the boundaries of modern democracy - as well as by not allowing racist ideologies to cloud the issues.

To be even bringing up race, in anti-Government discussion, is to be falling into the trap that the ANC
itself has made, for its opponents.

The only people in the modern SA who seem utterly obsessed with race, are the very people who
came to power fighting against this form of perception - against racism itself.

Furthermore - the ANC saying it shouldn't meddle in the affairs of another country (Zim) is absurd -
given that they spent a lot of time and PR energy in getting other countries to meddle in SA affairs,
to begin with. Now they have achieved control of SA, they've decided to change the rules of engagement.
If the rest of the world had operated in this way, towards the ANC, the ANC would still be in Lusaka,
making speeches on Radio Freedom.

 

[Fudzy]

I believe the opinions that Jozi, tibby or Fudzy hold of me are generally incorrect, I will not censor myself for their benefit. They will come around sooner or later. They do not usually answer rebuffs, either because I'm correct or because they do not share the same patience for me as I have for them.

Guess it will. I too, would like to see Manuel or Sexwale in power. I think they'd do wonders for the country. Unfortunately, unlike you I would rather see that success in liberation rather than the shooting of school children and framed bombings.

 

[Moederloos]

t
The racial aspects are irrelevant, and should stay irrelevant.

Not while the government uses race as a divider.

 

[lsuacner]

Guess it will. I too, would like to see Manuel or Sexwale in power. I think they'd do wonders for the country. Unfortunately, unlike you I would rather see that success in liberation rather than the shooting of school children and framed bombings.

"see that success in liberation", care to clarify what you meant?

Did I not indicate clearly my opinion about the measures which should be taken before resulting to force?
The ANC did kill innocent people, I explicitly said that an organisation which resorts to force should carefully consider such actions and the ramifications. I do not condone the killing of innocent people.

School children should be at school, attacking police officers and provoking them to such a degree that the police officers fear for their lives is not an act of a child, but by an adult who have taken the decision to risk his life in an armed fight. lonegunman would correct me if I'm wrong, as he has personal experience of marching against police officers as I recall.

You imply that the ANC was framed in bombings. Responsibility for the disgrace of a nation is taken by leaders, which is why the ANC "leaders" are not leaders at all. They do not take responsibility, nor do they hold others or themselves accountable for their actions.

 

[LoneGunman]

'Not while the government uses race as a divider.'

therefore, THAT is its weak point, and vulnerable point, which must be attacked.
How? By removing race from any anti Government discussion, and by clearly calling
anyone who attempts to raise race as an issue or reason, as 'racist'.

Something the ANC is lording it up and blocking its opponents by doing.

As long as folks grumble and mutter stupid rubbish about 'blacks' or 'whites' - and
perpetuate racial steroetypes, and stay divided, the ANC keeps winning. Unity is strength - and a truly non-racial society is what I'd imagine everyone in SA wants.

 

[LoneGunman]

there's a difference between genuine 'liberation of a nation'
and a simple 'grab for power and control' (while changing
nothing fundamentally of the status quo).
Its depressing, sure, to contemplate.

But I think most folks in SA are seeing the reality of which of these
two options has occurred in SA.

re debate over framing for bombings, and/or shooting of innocent children etc.
What do you want in guerilla warfare? People to line up nicely on either side and take turns at shooting?
Thats not reality. Reality is 'doing whatever necessary to win or kill the opponents'.
If that means pretending to be the other side and doing false flag operations (look it up) then that's what happens.

Remember, in any political struggle - a majority never bother to take part. Its always a tightly knit group -a minority, who go to war, and deliberately provoke the ruling powers into lashing out at everyone - which then sparks an escalation, and it pulls more and more of the unwilling majority into one or another form of protest..

 

[PeterCH]

Saw an interesting SACP t-shirt on someone a few days ago. It had two cartoons,
1987 - a white, rich, fat, suit wearing mine boss handing a think black labourer a banknote,
and a second 2007 cartoon showing the same scene this time with a fat, rich, BLACK
mine boss giving the same guy a pittance.
The back of the t-shirt said "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

 

[Fudzy]

"see that success in liberation", care to clarify what you meant?

I'd rather see a solution found without "I want to see this country fail as retribution, as the government has made my future prospects here rather bleak. I do not have respect for "dead wood"/complacency and would rather have it burn." as you put it. You are of the opinion this is the only solution.

Did I not indicate clearly my opinion about the measures which should be taken before resulting to force?

Clearly

The ANC did kill innocent people, I explicitly said that an organisation which resorts to force should carefully consider such actions and the ramifications. I do not condone the killing of innocent people.

School children should be at school, attacking police officers and provoking them to such a degree that the police officers fear for their lives is not an act of a child, but by an adult who have taken the decision to risk his life in an armed fight. lonegunman would correct me if I'm wrong, as he has personal experience of marching against police officers as I recall.

Just out of interest, who else sees school children as more of a threat than terrorist?

You imply that the ANC was framed in bombings. Responsibility for the disgrace of a nation is taken by leaders, which is why the ANC "leaders" are not leaders at all. They do not take responsibility, nor do they hold others or themselves accountable for their actions.

Review some of the TRC hearings. There are a number of bombings which were framed, I don't deny that ANC would be responsible for a number of other bombings but you certainly don't need to idealize over a bunch who would sooner frame the enemy than actually admit to whats going on.

 

[Skeptik]

The same set of reasons white people voted NP and for it's Apartheid policies never mind the damage it did to the country.

Tibby, for homework tonight, go and look and see HOW MANY people actually voted for the Nats. Then come back and tell us.