Paying so much for games

[Chevron]

Discs degrade with time too. Digital downloads are not sellable/transferable in any event so has nothing to do with the second-hand debate...

If the flash light on your phone stops working, it still works as a phone, just worth less. With a disc, either it works, or it doesn't. There's no in between. So up until it stops working everyone gets a perfect game experience.

So yes it does.. has to do with the perception of value. People see digital goods as being worth less, even if they cost the same to produce as a physical good.

 

[RazedInBlack]

You clearly don't give a s**t. I care about it a lot though.

Well actually I do care. Which is why I would buy an original game and NOT pirate it. I have no problem buying a day one release but if I buy a second-hand game from say . . . Cash Converters, what would you like me to do? Go hunt down the developer in order to pay him? As well as Cash Converters?

Your argument is silly!

 

[AfricanTech]

I would even go as far as to say that secondhand buyers are worse than pirates. They're scum, but pirates have a low propensity to buy new games - a significant margin aren't potential customers for publishers and would sooner go without the product were it unavailable illegally. But a secondhand buyer could have been a new sale if they gave enough of a damn to just buy new instead, as all games are discounted sooner or later to a price point that matches the utility received by owning it.

How on Earth does two sales constitute being paid twice for the same item? If I sold beautiful hand-made tools and you bought one set and shared them with a friend who wanted them just as much as you, you'd be screwing me over. Not preventing me from being paid twice for the same product.

I really don't get your point.

You sell me beautiful hand-made tools - you got paid for your labor at a price that you set.

I share them with a friend 'cos he can't afford it - while I am sharing them, I can't use them - how do you lose out? My friend will never be able to afford the beautiful hand-made tools, so he will never be able to buy them from you - you therefore haven't even lost out on out on a potential sale 'cos my friend will never be able to afford it.

How have I screwed you over by sharing with a friend? You can't lose what you never had.

 

[eye_suc]

This is obviously an opinionated matter. It really boils down to how you feel about remunerating content creators. You clearly don't give a s**t. I care about it a lot though.

If you did, shouldn't you have purchased all your games at full price and not wait for the sales? One 2nd hand sale results in more revenue (by the seller buying new games) than a bottom dollar steam sale. And just like your facts cannot be substantiated, so are mine

Smacks of hypocrisy, but a nice example of "this is what I believe and everybody else should believe it to".

 

[AfricanTech]

Games cost way more to make than any of those media you mentioned. They're on the level movies, and unlike movies there's no cinema->Blu Ray->Paid VOD->syndicated TV life cycle to make money. Games have in general 1 month to make back their dev costs, after that people have forgotten about it and moved on to the next thing. So with no extended life cycle second hand buyers hurt games a lot more than movies.

So can definitely see where he is coming from.

But, but, but, people who buy secondhand games buy them after the "1 month to make back the dev costs period" because they can't afford to buy it new - both you and Bryn are missing this point - you cannot lose what you don't already have.

People who buy 2nd hand games will not have bought the game new anyway, ergo, the publisher has lost nothing

How do you guys not get this?

 

[eye_suc]

How do you guys not get this?

Self righteous blinkers? Or riding the sanctimony pony?

 

[RazedInBlack]

#GameFeesMustFall

 

[AfricanTech]

If the flash light on your phone stops working, it still works as a phone, just worth less. With a disc, either it works, or it doesn't. There's no in between. So up until it stops working everyone gets a perfect game experience.

So yes it does.. has to do with the perception of value. People see digital goods as being worth less, even if they cost the same to produce as a physical good.

No it's not - have you played Leisure Suit Larry 1 recently? The experience is hugely different (for a whole host of factors) compared to when it was originally played.

 

[Bryn]

Well actually I do care. Which is why I would buy an original game and NOT pirate it. I have no problem buying a day one release but if I buy a second-hand game from say . . . Cash Converters, what would you like me to do? Go hunt down the developer in order to pay him? As well as Cash Converters?

Your argument is silly!

No, I'm saying don't buy from Cash Converters. Or any other secondhand games.

I really don't get your point.

You sell me beautiful hand-made tools - you got paid for your labor at a price that you set.

I share them with a friend 'cos he can't afford it - while I am sharing them, I can't use them - how do you lose out? My friend will never be able to afford the beautiful hand-made tools, so he will never be able to buy them from you - you therefore haven't even lost out on out on a potential sale 'cos my friend will never be able to afford it.

How have I screwed you over by sharing with a friend? You can't lose what you never had.

If your friend couldn't afford the tools then he's more like the pirate in this metaphor. He was a lost case from the beginning. But if he could afford the tools and would receive utility at least equal to their price, then he should buy his own set and not loaf off a friend.

Surely you're familiar with the concept of supporting business?

If you did, shouldn't you have purchased all your games at full price and not wait for the sales? One 2nd hand sale results in more revenue (by the seller buying new games) than a bottom dollar steam sale. And just like your facts cannot be substantiated, so are mine

Smacks of hypocrisy, but a nice example of "this is what I believe and everybody else should believe it to".

I preorder loads of games every year. Not everyone can afford to do that though, and not everyone values all games that much, which is why they're discounted after a period. In each case, the developer is being remunerated.

As for bottom-dollar prices - a number of indie devs have said that they made more money from being featured in a Steam sale than all previous sales combined.

But, but, but, people who buy secondhand games buy them after the "1 month to make back the dev costs period" because they can't afford to buy it new - both you and Bryn are missing this point - you cannot lose what you don't already have.

People who buy 2nd hand games will not have bought the game new anyway, ergo, the publisher has lost nothing

How do you guys not get this?

I highlighted the problem with your reasoning. Secondhand buyers have already demonstrated a propensity to buy the game. Therefore they could have bought it new at a price that matches their expected utility.

 

[Rocket-Boy]

Console gamers are getting ripped off, that is the bottom line.
Some games are almost half the price on pc. There wasnt any less dev time involved in making it but yet it costs a whole lot less.

 

[Vegeta]

Console gamers are getting ripped off, that is the bottom line.
Some games are almost half the price on pc. There wasnt any less dev time involved in making it but yet it costs a whole lot less.

Devs get the same, the extra bit that Console games cost over PC games goes to MS & Sony for the privilege of using their platform

 

[RazedInBlack]

No, I'm saying don't buy from Cash Converters. Or any other secondhand games.

Why not? I'm buying Batman Arkham Asylum off Gumtree for R450. Original retail price R899. I have no issue with this, at all! I guess that makes me scum! As you so wonderfully put

 

[Vegeta]

I explained in my previous post that the second hand market generates new sales. Think about cars for example, some buyers will never buy a new car others will only ever buy a new car. A new car buyer will not buy a new car unless he is assured of a 2nd hand value for his car.

Would you buy a R400k BMW knowing the second hand value is R0 after you drive it off the show room floor? No 2nd hand market.

 

[Bryn]

Why not? I'm buying Batman Arkham Asylum off Gumtree for R450. Original retail price R899. I have no issue with this, at all! I guess that makes me scum! As you so wonderfully put

I meant that pirates are scum. Should have worded out any ambiguity. But nonetheless, Arkham Knight has been out for a while now and will be included in the end of year sales. Can't understand why you wouldn't wait to buy it new and actually reward the dev for such an outstanding effort.

 

[Bryn]

I explained in my previous post that the second hand market generates new sales. Think about cars for example, some buyers will never buy a new car others will only ever buy a new car. A new car buyer will not buy a new car unless he is assured of a 2nd hand value for his car.

Would you buy a R400k BMW knowing the second hand value is R0 after you drive it off the show room floor?

I've already said that you can't compare major capital purchases with buying software. If you can afford a secondhand game you can also afford to buy it new. All games will be discounted to a price point that meets your expected utility sooner or later.

 

[Vegeta]

Another thing you have to keep in mind is that the price of goods already includes the 2nd buyers market.
For example if there is no 2nd hand market then things are usually cheaper to increase sales volumes to cover costs.

Take android apps for example, you can't share them or pass them on their value is short lived as well so devs make them extremely cheap to sell massive volumes and make it a impulse buy. Cars and houses are the exact opposite.

 

[AfricanTech]

No, I'm saying don't buy from Cash Converters. Or any other secondhand games.



If your friend couldn't afford the tools then he's more like the pirate in this metaphor. He was a lost case from the beginning. But if he could afford the tools and would receive utility at least equal to their price, then he should buy his own set and not loaf off a friend.

Surely you're familiar with the concept of supporting business?



I preorder loads of games every year. Not everyone can afford to do that though, and not everyone values all games that much, which is why they're discounted after a period. In each case, the developer is being remunerated.

As for bottom-dollar prices - a number of indie devs have said that they made more money from being featured in a Steam sale than all previous sales combined.



I highlighted the problem with your reasoning. Secondhand buyers have already demonstrated a propensity to buy the game. Therefore they could have bought it new at a price that matches their expected utility.

I give up

 

[TJ99]

Two scenarios:
1 - I buy a game and you pirate it. The publisher received payment for one game.
2 - I buy a game and sell it to you. The publisher received payment for one game.

Here's why I think buying secondhand games is particularly uncool - almost all other digital entertainment industries aren't nearly as impacted by piracy. Musicians make most of their money from live performances, movies make most of their money from box office ticket sales, TV shows determine their future budgets mostly from live viewership, books can be sold forever whereas games have a short shelf life etc.

I feel strongly that the creators of the content that I enjoy should be remunerated. I buy my books on my Kindle, stream all my music on Simfy, have DSTV and multiple streaming services through UnoTelly, buy all my software incl. video games legally on PC, make an effort to see the movies I'm anticipating during the first week they're in theatres etc.

Then feel free to remunerate them. I do too.

But I don't get on my high horse and tell other people what they can and can't do with their own money like I'm little miss bossy. You sound like a vegan. And nobody likes vegans.

The figure is closer to the opposite of 99%. I only play PC games since selling my PS3 years ago, and I come across bad ports once in a blue moon. I preordered Arkham Knight and finished the entire game in a few days - no technical issues to speak of. Many people also reported not having problems. But even then, bad ports tend to come from a small handful of lazy publishers. Fortunately we have Steam refunds now - and publishers are being harshly punished for broken ports as Steam does not refund their commission on sales. Bad ports will definitely decline from now on.

Not much of a reader are you? Bugs are only one small yet obvious part of the problem. The bigger, much harder to demonstrate and much more serious issue is the general dumbing down of games for a console audience, and keeping the "Press X to awesome" control system and simple gameplay paradigm that works well for console games and then applying that to PC games. What used to be known as consolization. The games should be developed on the PC as always used to be the case, then modified to work on consoles. Not the other way around. One very rare example of this being done right is Divinity: Original Sin, which is only now being reworked to consoles so it can appeal to A Wider Audience(TM). Point is, it's easy to dumb a game down or reduce details to make it work on a console. It's damn near impossible, not to mention very time consuming and expensive to smart it up to work on a PC. Post-release 16GB downloadable sooper dooper ultra texture packs are an insult.

I would even go as far as to say that secondhand buyers are worse than pirates. They're scum, but pirates have a low propensity to buy new games - a significant margin aren't potential customers for publishers and would sooner go without the product were it unavailable illegally. But a secondhand buyer could have been a new sale if they gave enough of a damn to just buy new instead, as all games are discounted sooner or later to a price point that matches the utility received by owning it.

How on Earth does two sales constitute being paid twice for the same item? If I sold beautiful hand-made tools and you bought one set and shared them with a friend who wanted them just as much as you, you'd be screwing me over. Not preventing me from being paid twice for the same product.

Lol, I borrowed my neighbour's screwdriver the other day. Guess I'm a filthy pirate scum now eh? I guess Feng Chao Heavy Manufacturing Facility #45642 in Xiaoxingxiaoxi, China is just preparing a massive lolsuit as we speak. You just proved how dumb your own argument is.

 

[AfricanTech]

No, I'm saying don't buy from Cash Converters. Or any other secondhand games.



If your friend couldn't afford the tools then he's more like the pirate in this metaphor. He was a lost case from the beginning. But if he could afford the tools and would receive utility at least equal to their price, then he should buy his own set and not loaf off a friend.

Surely you're familiar with the concept of supporting business?



I preorder loads of games every year. Not everyone can afford to do that though, and not everyone values all games that much, which is why they're discounted after a period. In each case, the developer is being remunerated.

As for bottom-dollar prices - a number of indie devs have said that they made more money from being featured in a Steam sale than all previous sales combined.



I highlighted the problem with your reasoning. Secondhand buyers have already demonstrated a propensity to buy the game. Therefore they could have bought it new at a price that matches their expected utility.

Can I come live in your world where there are no poor people please

 

[eye_suc]

All this heated discussion is fine and dandy, but this in no way helps the OP

@OP and console game players: Would it be useful if there was a tool/site where you could get notified via email the moment somebody puts a second hand game up for sale?

Lets say you select a game as "wanted" and put up a price threshold of R300 max, and if somebody lists the game within your threshold you get an email.