Pretoria or Tshwane

[Sapphiron]

taken from Wikipedia
"In 1950, during the apartheid regime, Soweto (SOuth WEst TOwnship) was constructed as a self-sufficient housing project. African people until then had been living in government designated areas for white settlement (such as the multi-racial area called Sophiatown). It began as a grouping of the farms Doornkop, Klipriviersoog, Diepkloof, Klipspruit and Vogelstruisfontein."

why have they not changed this name to reflect some of the heroes of the struggle. The name SOWETO was given to it by the Apartheid government. It would make more sense than changing Pretoria's name.

The name change is solely motivated by revenge and taking something from the whites and giving it to the new black upper class to increase their power. While the poor "continually disadvantaged" are still living in shacks in SOWETO.

 

[ajak]

taken from Wikipedia
"In 1950, during the apartheid regime, Soweto (SOuth WEst TOwnship) was constructed as a self-sufficient housing project. African people until then had been living in government designated areas for white settlement (such as the multi-racial area called Sophiatown). It began as a grouping of the farms Doornkop, Klipriviersoog, Diepkloof, Klipspruit and Vogelstruisfontein."

why have they not changed this name to reflect some of the heroes of the struggle. The name SOWETO was given to it by the Apartheid government. It would make more sense than changing Pretoria's name.

The name change is solely motivated by revenge and taking something from the whites and giving it to the new black upper class to increase their power. While the poor "continually disadvantaged" are still living in shacks in SOWETO.

SIT JOU SLIM KIND

 

[Ekhaatvensters]

If the majority want the name changed and dont feel very threatened by the name Pretoriaa nd would rather see the money spent on USEFULL projects, then what is the governments argument?

Why not leave things as they are?
I also read in Die Burger this morning that 91% of the votes and even 85% of a black in studio audience voted for the name to remain as other issues were far more pressing and most people just couldnt care given the circumstance they already live in, whats a name?
And interesting that two afrikaans whites led the debate for the name to stay the same on the show, yet the back audience still voted with them and against two black people arguing for the name change? Shurley that shows you something!

 

[Tassidar]

Why is the name Pretoria offensive

Angelo,

I respect the your arguments, and agree with the need for dignity and self-respect.

However, I feel that throughout this forum, you have still not answered the question: Why is the name Pretoria offensive?

I could easily understand you point if you talking about BJ Voster or Hertzog. But Pretoria has nothing to do with the evils of apartheid.

Indeed, by saying Pretoria is a bad name, you are implying that white settlement in South Africa should not be remembered (on the assumption that Pretorius was an explorer). Is this your intention?

Otherwise, I must agree with the sentiment expressed by the majority of forumites that the name change is a waste of money.

 

[Xarog]

Good decision, there will always be opposition to transformation but ultimately change will be implemented.

How about we change it so that women aren't allowed out of the house? Afterall, there will always be opposition to transformation, but ultimately change will be implemented...

Or maybe not all change is good, and we have to look at the repercussions of the changes we want to make.

If this becomes the case then a certain period of time (say a whole year) would be dedicated to dealing with a particular challenge facing the country until all challenges have been resolved one by one. One imperative doesn't and shouldn't render other imperatives unimportant.

And calling a place Pretoria is something that needs to be changed because...?

Are you saying it was not wrong that a Western name was enforced on Africans and their place of dwelling?

I can only assume that you're implying that it's wrong that a western name was enforced on africans and their place of dwelling. I can then only assume that you must think it wrong to force an african name on westerners and their place of dwelling.

BTTB that is the solution the government is proposing, but the minority are turning it down, they want the WHOLE area to retain its Apartheid era name.

It's not an apartheid era name.

The "extremely small proportion of the population" that you refer to is a good of way of defining those who oppose ranaming. Again those "bigger problems" do have their budget and shouldn't be used as an excuse to keep relics of the past. And it's interesting to note that the people who are most affected by the "big problems" are the ones who are supporting the name change and do not view it as a stumbing block to their problems getting attention.

Names should not be changed purely because they're relics of the past. As I've already said, Pretoria is not an apartheid era name. If you want to change the name, come up with some other justification.

IC with due respect I don't think it will be productive for me to engage in this debate with you if you can still genuinely pose such a question in this day and age.

It's a reasonable question; I suspect you merely aren't capable of answering it, as your rhetoric doesn't cover it.

Do you think the fact that it was named 1800s rather than say 1967 makes it acceptable to the majority?

So all names should be acceptable by the majority?

I hereby vote that we should all change Angelo's name to Piet - all in favour?

Are you concerned that it will cost money to change the name or is your problem the fact that that part of the country is now going to bear an African name. If your problem is the former, did you feel so strongly about African identities being stripped in favour of Western ones?

Funny, you seem to think it's OK for 'white' identities to be stripped away but when 'whites' do it to someone else, it's not OK... That's racist.

The renaming is more about Africans than it is about whites, it's is to restore the names that were there before occupation, sounds fair enough to me.

It's not a ****ing occupation. Occupations are made by people dominating a foreign area. Afrikaners did not occupy Africa in lieu of another nation or place. Afrikaners chose to make this place their home. By definition, that cannot be an occupation.

Yes old sport that and the fact that Africans want their names restored is the main motivation.

Then do the decent thing and restore it to the original San names. Otherwise you're just a hypocrite.

Renaming a city is not a priority. Period.

As a white who grew up in the Apartheid era your thinking is perfectly understandable.

As a rational statement, it's understandable.

Believe me in time Tshwane will be just as internationally recognisable as any other name, besides "international recognition" is not the motive for renaming locations.

Give or take a hundred years.

Originally Posted by kingmonty
Erm, So Africans don't include whites? Here you go with your racist BS again.

*Africans* (to use your term) will try anything to remove the whites from their History, Name Changing is simply just another such strategy
Renaming is a waste of money, ans also an extremely racist action
Nobody arguing in these threads have been able to successfully prove what Pretoria was named before it was founded as Pretoria

Damn! some people?..................for days forumites and Mods (including RPM) have been preaching for people to avoid personal attacks and childishness and here we go again, just because somebody doesn't agree/can't debate with me.

Accusing you of spewing Racist BS is not a personal attack, it's ridiculing your argument. They're two very different things.

That's possibly a whole independent debate for another thread, Im only referring to Blacks as Africans (not saying Whites aren't) if that's okay with you?

No, it's not OK. I'm white. I'm also an African. I love living here, and despite having a horrible government, and having to deal with a few really serious and worrying problems, I love this country. Labelling me with the name "westerner" suggests I'm not welcome here, and I resent that.

Okay one thing and one thing all caucasian people in South Africa must understand is that you are South Afircan, but you are not a Native! Period.

Rubbish. Humans all came from Africa - by this standard, everyone is a native African.

The alternative is that you have to admit that all of us, save the Khoi and San, are not native to this area.

All that's being chaged is a name, nothing is being taken away from you that was not yours in the first place.
If you really believe you're entitled to a non Afircan name on African soil then you clearly don't belong here and you'd do youself a favor and leave.

No, I think I'll stay long enough to watch you give all the land back to the San and Khoi.

No natives were consulted about naming the place Pretoria, it was just done. People should be glad you're even being consulted or even getting a say in the matter at all.

No natives were consulted in changing the name to Tshwane, either, then.

Nicely summarised ShockG, "let those with ears listen".

And let those with brains not be led to believe bullshirt.

Monty I'm very dissapointed with the way you conducted yourself in this thread but the last thing I will say to you is African places should and will get African names, if you prefer Western names feel free to leave and settle in Western cities with Western names (rightly so).

Ignoring your erroneous use of "western" :
Pretoria is a "western" city. Afrikaners moved their, mixed their effort with the land, and in that regard made it as much theirs as anyone's.

No here's the thing you'll never be forgiven until you come right.

I fail to see how changing a name will be proof of "coming right".

The genral attitude on this forum (save for the few who don't falunder this banner) is that SA is going down the drain, as if it was so great before. It was great because the minority were in power, doing as they pleased when they pleased. Now that things are changed its going down the drain? :/

It's going down the drain because the people in power appear to be more interested in screwing everyone over for their own gain, rather than actually serving the people.

Believe it or not no, African shares any heritage with you.

We're all African. Some of us just travelled a little further than others. Some decided to come back. It is generally accepted within the scientific community that all animals that are genetically of the race homo sapiens originated in Africa.

You want them to respect it when you did not respect theirs.

Oh, so it's not OK for someone to step on your heritage, but then you can step on theirs?

That's hypocrisy of a disgusting degree.

how you treated the people that were rightfully here you still want a say in how things happen.

I see - violently driving off the San was OK, and their lands that you stole was OK, because it's "rightfully" yours. What utter rubbish.

This is either extreme arrogance or irreproachable stupidity. I'm leaning towards the former, but make room for the latter.

It's you who is either incredibly stupid or extremely arrogant.

D.F Malan was changed to Beyers Nauder in honor of a man who made a difference. In honor of someone who was not a native but took it upon himself to fight against what was wrong and could rightfully call himself an African.

I thought whites couldn't be Africans because they weren't native?

Nobody is wiping out The history of whites, the ones worth honoring are being honored and the rest are being done away with.(Their monuments that is) Its that simple

Well, in that case Tshwane wasn't worth honouring either, since what he did was no more courageous than Andries Pretorius' actions.

I can argue with you until kingdom come BUT Tshwane is going to be the new name so deal with it!

Last I heard, the government had halted the change for the purpose of "cost assessment" sounds to me like it's not certain at all.



To All :

Gee, I have a suggestion, let's import all the San out of the Kalahari desert and bring them back here, and let them rename everything here. That way no one can complain, problem solved! (That is meant to be tongue in cheek, to point out the stupidity of the reasons used to justify the name change.)

 

[antowan]

WARNING! Enough of this racism thing. Steer clear of calling each other racists and personal attacks or day bans will follow. Please, we have asked this repeatedly and there seems to be the idea that it is okay to attack each other's characters. It isn't. The nature of a forum doesn't allow for this to be accepted because it creates an environment unpleasant for people to have interaction in. I will seriously consider day bans for anybody overstepping the line. Please. Moderating this has become tedious and I ask people who spot this to continue pointing it out so that we can sort this issue out once and for all. Stop the personal attacks!

 

[ShockG]

And South Africa is a Western Country because it was colonised and founded by western people.

And there again you go. You didn't found anything. There were people here before recorded history.

The only heritage we share is that none of us were here. Only the San was here. We are either all africans or none of us are. Pretoria is a South African name whether people like it or not. It is not synonymous with injustice. It was named in honor of someone who did a lot for the country and should remain that way instead of being changed simply because it is a name given by white people.

You see, you like to make yourself feel better about the Crap treatment you gave the native people. So you say no one was here except the San, which is absolute bull****. You are the last person to quote black history to anyone.
The San were not of European descent, they were bown skinned just like I am and others who are 70+% of the country.

That they may have died from smallpox (which is probably B.S) is besides the point, because you still managed to enslave the ones that were left behind.

And please, No white person has the right to even dare say who's African and who isn't. You came by boat here from your original country. You are not a native, when you arrived you caused trouble, then you take it upon yourself to say who belongs here and who doesnt.

The arrogance of some white people in this country is astounding. When '94 came you were not killed by the masses, nothing happened to you, yet you still have the gore to have an opinion on how the country is run. You have never walked a day in the shoes of a black man and you never will. To assume to know whats important to him and what isn't is sheer arrogance. This very arrogance that will forever make it impossible for you to be African.

The ruling minority tried and succeeded in some respect to strip any form of identity black people had, from the English names they were given, to the mis pronounced and mispelled names. It was done without thought or consent it was done to destory any sense of pride the people had in themselves.

And just how African are any of you so opposed to Tswane?
You say you're African, but you can't even greet in any native tongue (Afrikaans is not a native tongue nor is it African). But I garuntee you. If you stayed in france for even 2years or less you'd be speaking french. Some of you say your were born here and your great grandparents and all that, but how many of you can hold a conversation with any black person in any african language?

solely motivated by revenge and taking something from the whites

Yes and so? If you F#$k with a people you should expect them to take revenge and it is their right to do so. You should say sorry and say how can we fix this and not try and tell them how to run their country.

SOWETO describes the location of a place or places. The townships are South Western. Preotria is a persons name who had no right to have anything named after him in the first place, at least not in Africa.

Aah, and there lies the crux of the problem that you have with western names, you consider the presence of white people in SA to be an occupation and not to be part of the nation of SA.

Yes! An occupation is done through force and that's exactly what happened.
And as long as white people continue to express such ideas then you will forever be settlers.

The solution is simple. White people either accept they ****ed up, apologize and ask how they can make things better or shut up. Its not up to you anymore as it should have never been.

Agm,you know what, they (ANC government) are ****ing up the country (and Pretoria) so badly that its should rather become a crime cesspool with a different name and not tarnish the old name...

The country was **** before and its **** now. The only difference is black folk would rather have black folk trating them bad than white people. Its that simple. Rather the devil you know than the one you don't.

You can call Tswane Pretoria if you want, everybody knows what you're talking about. You can call it Preoria in your house, within your friends and maybe at your place of work. For the rest of the country its Tswane.

To hell with what the majority wants we will change it because we hate the whites

Yes and I repeat, black folk are well within their rights to hate white people. Dont see how that makes any difference to your life.
You can hate all the blacks also, no one is going to lose sleep over it.

 

[ajak]

And there again you go. You didn't found anything. There were people here before recorded history.


You see, you like to make yourself feel better about the Crap treatment you gave the native people. So you say no one was here except the San, which is absolute bull****. You are the last person to quote black history to anyone.
The San were not of European descent, they were bown skinned just like I am and others who are 70+% of the country.

That they may have died from smallpox (which is probably B.S) is besides the point, because you still managed to enslave the ones that were left behind.

And please, No white person has the right to even dare say who's African and who isn't. You came by boat here from your original country. You are not a native, when you arrived you caused trouble, then you take it upon yourself to say who belongs here and who doesnt.

The arrogance of some white people in this country is astounding. When '94 came you were not killed by the masses, nothing happened to you, yet you still have the gore to have an opinion on how the country is run. You have never walked a day in the shoes of a black man and you never will. To assume to know whats important to him and what isn't is sheer arrogance. This very arrogance that will forever make it impossible for you to be African.

The ruling minority tried and succeeded in some respect to strip any form of identity black people had, from the English names they were given, to the mis pronounced and mispelled names. It was done without thought or consent it was done to destory any sense of pride the people had in themselves.

And just how African are any of you so opposed to Tswane?
You say you're African, but you can't even greet in any native tongue (Afrikaans is not a native tongue nor is it African). But I garuntee you. If you stayed in france for even 2years or less you'd be speaking french. Some of you say your were born here and your great grandparents and all that, but how many of you can hold a conversation with any black person in any african language?


Yes and so? If you F#$k with a people you should expect them to take revenge and it is their right to do so. You should say sorry and say how can we fix this and not try and tell them how to run their country.

SOWETO describes the location of a place or places. The townships are South Western. Preotria is a persons name who had no right to have anything named after him in the first place, at least not in Africa.



Yes! An occupation is done through force and that's exactly what happened.
And as long as white people continue to express such ideas then you will forever be settlers.

The solution is simple. White people either accept they ****ed up, apologize and ask how they can make things better or shut up. Its not up to you anymore as it should have never been.



The country was **** before and its **** now. The only difference is black folk would rather have black folk trating them bad than white people. Its that simple. Rather the devil you know than the one you don't.

You can call Tswane Pretoria if you want, everybody knows what you're talking about. You can call it Preoria in your house, within your friends and maybe at your place of work. For the rest of the country its Tswane.


Yes and I repeat, black folk are well within their rights to hate white people. Dont see how that makes any difference to your life.
You can hate all the blacks also, no one is going to lose sleep over it.

HE HE HE HE HE HE (OEPS SORRY WRONG THREAD)

 

[nocilah]

i couldnt care less what is decided for a town name. to have things changing is inevitable, for some people to embrace the change and other people hate it is also envitable.

it is not so much what people want these days, but more about what the people with the power want.

 

[antowan]

I daresay there probably isn't a place in the public sphere where this kind of debate is taking place. I believe it should and I am glad to see people from different sides attack the issues so vehemently. I however urge all to keep it civil. If this thread continues the way it is without toning down the personal insults, it will have to be closed. I don't want to do this because the debate is healthy. Please be kinder towards each other. Even if you don't agree. Fight ideas and opinions, not each other. Debate is supposed to be a transferal of facts, which can lead two differing parties to enlightenment. It is supposed to be a win-win situation rather than win-lose. Please adjust your debates to reflect this or we might be forced to think of drastically inhibiting this sort of discussion, which would be a shame.

 

[Tassidar]

And please, No white person has the right to even dare say who's African and who isn't. You came by boat here from your original country. You are not a native, when you arrived you caused trouble, then you take it upon yourself to say who belongs here and who doesnt.

The arrogance of some white people in this country is astounding. When '94 came you were not killed by the masses, nothing happened to you, yet you still have the gore to have an opinion on how the country is run. You have never walked a day in the shoes of a black man and you never will. To assume to know whats important to him and what isn't is sheer arrogance. This very arrogance that will forever make it impossible for you to be African.

ShockG, while I appreciate your anger, your views come very close to mirroring the exact system that you are vehemently opposing. To say white people are not entitled to an opinion is to deprive them of a fundamental right, and make them secondary citizens.

Do you really mean this?

Otherwise please retract the statement.

Thanks

 

[kingmonty]

Yes and so? If you F#$k with a people you should expect them to take revenge and it is their right to do so. You should say sorry and say how can we fix this and not try and tell them how to run their country.

So changing Pretoria's name is a vengeful action?

SOWETO describes the location of a place or places. The townships are South Western. Preotria is a persons name who had no right to have anything named after him in the first place, at least not in Africa.

So naming a place after a person is not an acceptable practice? Even if the person in this instance happens to have set the foundations of this wonderful country?

Yes! An occupation is done through force and that's exactly what happened.
And as long as white people continue to express such ideas then you will forever be settlers.

What?

The solution is simple. White people either accept they ****ed up, apologize and ask how they can make things better or shut up. Its not up to you anymore as it should have never been.

Ok, so changing a couple of city names at tremendous cost while the citizens in the country are starving is helping how? I'm tired of being told to shut up because I'm white.

The country was **** before and its **** now. The only difference is black folk would rather have black folk trating them bad than white people. Its that simple. Rather the devil you know than the one you don't.

How about an African country that doesn't fail?

You can call Tswane Pretoria if you want, everybody knows what you're talking about. You can call it Preoria in your house, within your friends and maybe at your place of work. For the rest of the country its Tswane.

Huh?
*sigh* the majority of all people that has been polled in this issue has said that they would rather the name stays and the money get spent elsewhere. The respondents were from a wide demographic - including Township dwellers as well as Pretoria residents. The overwhelming majority of SOUTH AFRICANS wants the name to stay - irrespective of race.

 

[Xarog]

And there again you go. You didn't found anything. There were people here before recorded history.

The borders of SA, and indeed all of Africa as they stand now, are the direct result of western influence, so South Africa's political landscape was founded by westerners. (note : in many cases the borders were really stupid, dividing tribes between two countries, or leaving many opposing tribes within one country. In general, the current political borders of Africa is not a good thing.)

You see, you like to make yourself feel better about the Crap treatment you gave the native people. So you say no one was here except the San, which is absolute bull****.

It's not bull if it's true. The 'native' tribes here today, are all tribes that originated in the northern parts of the continent.

You are the last person to quote black history to anyone.
The San were not of European descent, they were bown skinned just like I am and others who are 70+% of the country.

Yet they have their own culture and language, distinct from any other tribe. I notice you aren't trying to ensure we name the country with the names they gave to the various places here.

That they may have died from smallpox (which is probably B.S) is besides the point, because you still managed to enslave the ones that were left behind.

Whites weren't the only ones persecuting the San. There's a reason they were chased into the Kalahari desert after they left the borders of South Africa. Seems you've conveniently forgotten that little fact.

And please, No white person has the right to even dare say who's African and who isn't. You came by boat here from your original country. You are not a native, when you arrived you caused trouble, then you take it upon yourself to say who belongs here and who doesnt.

You're right, white people don't. No one does. Anyone who considers themselves an African is a defacto African. Regarding the claims about who's native and isn't, I've already addressed those.

The arrogance of some white people in this country is astounding. When '94 came you were not killed by the masses, nothing happened to you, yet you still have the gore to have an opinion on how the country is run.

The word is 'gall', not 'gore'. Secondly, are you claiming white people cannot have good ideas? If not, then you would be wise to listen to the suggestions white people give about the country - some of them may just be good ones.

You have never walked a day in the shoes of a black man and you never will. To assume to know whats important to him and what isn't is sheer arrogance.

I did not see anyone assuming that they know what's important to black people.

This very arrogance that will forever make it impossible for you to be African.

Guess it's a good thing no one tried to dictate to anyone else what it means to be a black person.

And just how African are any of you so opposed to Tswane?
You say you're African, but you can't even greet in any native tongue (Afrikaans is not a native tongue nor is it African)

Yes it is.

But I garuntee you. If you stayed in france for even 2years or less you'd be speaking french.

So? People don't speak much else other than french. People speak many languages here.

Some of you say your were born here and your great grandparents and all that, but how many of you can hold a conversation with any black person in any african language?

I've spoken to many black people in Afrikaans. By the way, what about coloured people? They speak Afrikaans too - are they native, or not? Do they have a right to keep speaking Afrikaans or not?

Yes and so? If you F#$k with a people you should expect them to take revenge and it is their right to do so. You should say sorry and say how can we fix this and not try and tell them how to run their country.

So if you F#$k with Afrikaners and the names of their places, they're entitled to revenge?

SOWETO describes the location of a place or places.

In a "western" language.

Preotria is a persons name who had no right to have anything named after him in the first place, at least not in Africa.

Says who?

Yes! An occupation is done through force and that's exactly what happened. And as long as white people continue to express such ideas then you will forever be settlers.

An occupation is a foreign power subjugating the citizens of any particular region or area. As I have said, by definition, the existence of the white people here is not an occupation. White people have as much of a right to live here as anyone else.

The solution is simple. White people either accept they ****ed up, apologize and ask how they can make things better or shut up. Its not up to you anymore as it should have never been.

So only black people can rule, now?

The country was **** before and its **** now. The only difference is black folk would rather have black folk trating them bad than white people. Its that simple. Rather the devil you know than the one you don't.

Also a clear example of racism. I was under the impression that subjugation was wrong, no matter who was doing it to whom.

You can call Tswane Pretoria if you want, everybody knows what you're talking about. You can call it Preoria in your house, within your friends and maybe at your place of work. For the rest of the country its Tswane.

So why isn't it good enough to simply call it Tshwane in your house?

Yes and I repeat, black folk are well within their rights to hate white people. Dont see how that makes any difference to your life.
You can hate all the blacks also, no one is going to lose sleep over it.

This is true, but it's not exactly a positive attitude, now is it?

 

[Prometheus]

And there again you go. You didn't found anything. There were people here before recorded history.

And there you go again attacking people for stating facts to you.

The written history of South Africa began on April 6, 1652, when a victualling station was established at the Cape of Good Hope by Jan van Riebeeck on behalf of the Dutch East India Company. For most of the 17th and 18th centuries, the slowly expanding settlement was a Dutch possession. The Dutch settlers eventually met the South-Westerly expanding Xhosa people in the region of the Fish River.

Xhosas are not indigenous to South Africa. They were moving from up north at about the same time the white people were moving form the Cape. They were possibly fleeing from the Zulu which under Shaka's rule waged war against the tribes and incorporated the woman and children into the Zulu nation. Zulus are therefor not indigenous either since they also come from up north.

To ease Cape labour shortages slaves were imported from Indonesia, Madagascar, and India. Descendants of these slaves, who often married with Dutch settlers, were later classified together with the remnants of the Khoikhoi as Cape Coloureds and "Cape Malays", constituting roughly 50% of the population in the Western Cape Province.

So the coloured people were descendants from white people and slaves, both of which are not indigenous.

The Khoikhoi ("men of men") or Khoi are a historical division of the Khoisan ethnic group of south-western Africa, closely related to the Bushmen (or San, as the Khoikhoi called them). Khoikhoi is sometimes spelt KhoeKhoe. At the time of the arrival of white settlers in 1652 the Khoikhoi had lived in southern Africa for about 30,000 years, and practised extensive pastoral agriculture in the Cape region.

So they are probably descendants from the San which are indigenous. Some of them settled down on farms and others were incorporated into groups of the Xhosa people.

You see, you like to make yourself feel better about the Crap treatment you gave the native people. So you say no one was here except the San, which is absolute bull****. You are the last person to quote black history to anyone.

Please stop your racist remarks. You are not indigenous to this country unless you are a bushman. Everyone else in this country is from a settlers heritage and has no right to throw stones at anyone for how the native people (San) was treated.

That they may have died from smallpox (which is probably B.S) is besides the point, because you still managed to enslave the ones that were left behind.

Please stop your generalizations. You are just as much to blame for not doing anything about it.

And please, No white person has the right to even dare say who's African and who isn't. You came by boat here from your original country. You are not a native, when you arrived you caused trouble, then you take it upon yourself to say who belongs here and who doesnt.

You are not native either so stop complaining about it. Like I said, either everyone is native or NO ONE IS because everyone arrived here sometime.

The arrogance of some white people in this country is astounding. When '94 came you were not killed by the masses, nothing happened to you, yet you still have the gore to have an opinion on how the country is run. You have never walked a day in the shoes of a black man and you never will. To assume to know whats important to him and what isn't is sheer arrogance. This very arrogance that will forever make it impossible for you to be African.

More generalizations. You expect everyone to keep quiet while the ruling parties are mucking up the country. Forget change for the better, it will never happen with your mindset.

The ruling minority tried and succeeded in some respect to strip any form of identity black people had, from the English names they were given, to the mis pronounced and mispelled names. It was done without thought or consent it was done to destory any sense of pride the people had in themselves.

Who was the ruling minority? They don't have anything to do with this issue. Don't make assumptions.

And just how African are any of you so opposed to Tswane?
You say you're African, but you can't even greet in any native tongue (Afrikaans is not a native tongue nor is it African).

Neither is Zulu, Xhosa, Sotho, or any other african language. So if you greet in any language other than Khoisan you are not greeting in a native language.

Some of you say your were born here and your great grandparents and all that, but how many of you can hold a conversation with any black person in any african language?

Has no bearing on the case. As I said african languages are not native.

Yes and so? If you F#$k with a people you should expect them to take revenge and it is their right to do so. You should say sorry and say how can we fix this and not try and tell them how to run their country.

Sounds like you're condoning murder and violence. And it's not their country, it's everyones, white, black and coloured.

SOWETO describes the location of a place or places. The townships are South Western. Preotria is a persons name who had no right to have anything named after him in the first place, at least not in Africa.

So you think Andries Pretorius doesn't deserve to have anything named after him. Then by your rhetoric the Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital should then be renamed Baragwanath Hospital because if Andries Pretorius doesn't deserve to be honoured then neither does he.

Yes! An occupation is done through force and that's exactly what happened.
And as long as white people continue to express such ideas then you will forever be settlers.

That is not what happened. Everyone arrived here at more or less the same time. Black fought with the white people against the British but was overwhelmed by them. The Treaty of Vereeniging was signed which specified full British sovereignty over the South African republics. One of the main provisions was that 'Blacks' would not be allowed to vote, except in the Cape Colony. The right-wing National Party sympathised with Nazi Germany during the war, and sought greater racial segregation, or apartheid, after it. In 1948, the National Party was elected to power, and began implementing a series of harsh segregationist laws that would become known collectively as apartheid.

So why are you not blaming the British? They took away the rights of blacks to vote which led to the national party being elected, which implemented segregation out of sympathy for the Nazis. Instead you come here blaming every white person that either wasn't born then or wasn't old enough to vote for apartheid to end.

The solution is simple. White people either accept they ****ed up, apologize and ask how they can make things better or shut up. Its not up to you anymore as it should have never been.

No, we refuse to shut up. Not all white people voted for apartheid and a lot voted for it to end.

The country was **** before and its **** now. The only difference is black folk would rather have black folk trating them bad than white people. Its that simple. Rather the devil you know than the one you don't.

Bad treatment is never acceptable, no matter what the color of the person in charge is.

You can call Tswane Pretoria if you want, everybody knows what you're talking about. You can call it Preoria in your house, within your friends and maybe at your place of work. For the rest of the country its Tswane.

Doesn't change the fact that it would still be a waste of money.

Yes and I repeat, black folk are well within their rights to hate white people. Dont see how that makes any difference to your life.
You can hate all the blacks also, no one is going to lose sleep over it.

No one has any right to hate any body. And I don't hate any one including black people. Please stop your racist rhetoric. There is no place here for it!

 

[Xarog]

No one has any right to hate any body. And I don't hate any one including black people. Please stop your racist rhetoric. There is no place here for it!

Why not? Hate is bad, yes, but why don't people have a right to hate? It's their personal feelings. I hate Telkom, for instance. There are people I hate, too, Robert Mugabe and George W. Bush are two good examples. Would you deny me that freedom? If so, why? what's it to you that I hate them? Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, I think you have no right to tell me who I should and shouldn't hate, nor for what reason. It's a free country, I can hate who I want.

 

[pupa]

Again arguments about who is who in South Africa. Gshock I can see where you come from. Another hater of the Afrikaners? or settlers as our own leaders call us!

Just some brief points relating to some of the nonsense you posted
I am a white South African citizen, Afrikaans for that matter. I was born here, I did not come via boat. My forefathers came to this country via waters yours came here via land. No difference so we both do not belong here in your tone of view! My Mother tongue is Afrikaans. A Language that originated here in South Africa from many languages, It has culture and class unlike other I have seen and heard about. It is true literature not something adopted by choice. A language of this country. Inherited and developed from many tongues of the world. Unique, Nowhere else does it exist.

The Settler when they came here was not the Afrikaner, It was foreigners, they made slaves of the natives of this land, raw savages they were! So we did not enslave the people the British did. We inherited the system and as that was the only way to control the savages of Africa that was the de facto standard all over Africa. They got liberated and to an degree, remember that they were thousands of years behind the civilisation of the day, they came in contact with civilisation that was not here before. Adopted the "western" standards very quickly as they were easy to bribe and easy to influence. Dingaan sold his land and culture out of greed and thus sold out his people! The Afrikaner developed in this Land and were not happy been under rule of the English and traveled north! Fought many wars with the tribes and savages and eventually formed pacts and legal agreement with the local tribes and savages for land. Now all this carried on until Apartheid sadly was "born" in the years 1955-1965. Separate conglomeration occurred naturally at the time anyway! Natural apartheid if I may! The financial might of the British were not available freely and this country was developed by the Boers and locals together and the country slowly got civilised! That was over the last 400 years, 1600 years after the birth of Christ! Why that was the case someone can only deliberate but it is facts. Remember Africa was the forefathers of the world they say. Now most of the history after that became part off our lives. Born in 1957 and inherited the situation as it was then as we grew up! Thus I see and feel I am part of the show here locally. You and the GVT obviously by actions and words feel different! Blame us for all the problems and the current situation, 12 years after you took over the rule of the country. looking at the North of our borders as have seen, this same scenario is playing out again locally as in recent history! this is no consolation as we see daily the same errors and same attitudes. There up North there is no one to blame except Mugabe blames Blair and other Blames Bush for their own doing and creation of their plight and strive. Are we going to end up the same! Yes! with the actions the GVT and You portray here! Either you except us as part of the solution and we all win or we all loose anyway, That simple!

 

[DigitalSoldier]

LOL funny how these threads always turn out the same, some people cant stand the facts and start calling other racist, right-wingers etc etc untill eventually the thread gets locked.

 

[Prometheus]

Why not? Hate is bad, yes, but why don't people have a right to hate? It's their personal feelings. I hate Telkom, for instance. There are people I hate, too, Robert Mugabe and George W. Bush are two good examples. Would you deny me that freedom? If so, why? what's it to you that I hate them? Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, I think you have no right to tell me who I should and shouldn't hate, nor for what reason. It's a free country, I can hate who I want.

Xarog: Jesus said: "let him who is without sin cast the first stone". We are all responsible for the situation that we are in and no one has any "right" to blame any one else as we are all guilty in some way or another. I hate Telkom yes, but Telkom is not a person. I don't hate the people like Papi and the executives that make the decisions. I hate what they are doing and hope that they will change things, but I don't hate them. I don't hate Mugabe. I hate what he is doing to his country and maybe some day he would come to enlightenment by going through the same hardship which he is forcing his people to go through. I don't wise hardship to come to him, but if it would change him and his country for the better then I'm not against it. I don't hate Bush, I hate the decisions he made up till now. Going to war with Iraq was probably the right thing although I was opposed to it, but now they are screwing up the post-war occupation.

You are free to hate who you want to hate, but you certainly don't have any "right" to hate anyone as you are just as much a sinner as everyone else including me. We can't hate people and then say no one should hate us in return. That is why this country and world is in the state it is in. Hate only invites more hate, where forgiveness invites others to forgive us.

Just look at the examples. America helped Saddam to stay in power out of self interest and then retaliate because of fear from nuclear attack. Insurgents attack soldiers out of hate for the Americans. Now American soldiers killed more people out of hate for the insurgents causing the trouble. Now there will probably be more violence out of hate for the American soldiers. Where does all this end? It can only lead to self destruction of the human race.

Future Scenario:
Palestinian terrorist launch nuclear attack against New York (or some other city) for defending Israel. USA launch attack against terrorist and succeeds. Japan is hit with nuclear fallout and launch nuclear attack against USA marine fleet.

 

[pupa]

LOL funny how these threads always turn out the same, some people cant stand the facts and start calling other racist, right-wingers etc etc untill eventually the thread gets locked.

Same Modus operandi Daily here. Thats the way they operate, they want the thread to be shut when they see facts they have No answer for or make them feel either guilty or paranoide or for that matter just insecure about themselves!

 

[vampirotoothus]

I'm really getting angry at the way this matter is being handled. I think, since we have a democratic country now (which is a good thing) we should be given the chance to vote democratically which name should be used.

But they should take cost and effects in consideration.