SA Politics Thread Part 11: The GNU Normal

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Scooby_Doo said:
You have to have that relative to something, what is middle class, can you define it?

Edit,

Are you comparing it the US or EU? Global income? China?
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It is about lifestyle/quality of life and purchasing power/disposable income. Like the example above, owning a 3 bed house in a good neighbourhood, having money to own a holiday house, or go on an overseas trip every year.
 
Scooby_Doo said:
So this is your version of middle class? Not something that is defined.
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It has various ways to define it, but defining it in terms of relative position relative to a country is not an accurate way to define it. If it is defined like this, then R20k per month in SA is middle class. Nope, R20k per month is not even close to being middleclass, you are still dirt poor no matter what your relative position is.
 
Benedict A55h0le not said:
It has various ways to define it, but defining it in terms of relative position relative to a country is not an accurate way to define it. If it is defined like this, then R20k per month in SA is middle class. Nope, R20k per month is not even close to being middleclass, you are still dirt poor no matter what your relative position is.
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Unfortunately this is not how definitions work. What you are providing is an opinion based on feelings. No one can discuss this logically without some defining parameters as your opinion and feelings towards middle class will be different from someone else.

However if you were to say middle income is based on the global or specific country's range of incomes then it would be worth discussing.

Not to say your opinion is wrong, its just not a definition.
 
Scooby_Doo said:
Unfortunately this is not how definitions work. What you are providing is an opinion based on feelings. No one can discuss this logically without some defining parameters as your opinion and feelings towards middle class will be different from someone else.

However if you were to say middle income is based on the global or specific country's range of incomes then it would be worth discussing.

Not to say your opinion is wrong, its just not a definition.
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"It has various ways to define it" I am simply trying to define it logically, otherwise we get a R20k per month is middle class definition.

Country makes no difference. What matters is lifestyle and disposable income, which is the same for middle class irrespective of country.
 
Benedict A55h0le not said:
"It has various ways to define it" I am simply trying to define it logically, otherwise we get a R20k per month is middle class definition.

Country makes no difference. What matters is lifestyle and disposable income, which is the same for middle class irrespective of country.
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Still not defining it - your perspective is up to feelings. A Dubai prince's idea of middle class is going to be vastly different to that of an Indian manual labourer.

Edit,

But saying the middle 33% of income earners globally is middle class is a definition as it can be checked.
 
Benedict A55h0le not said:
"It has various ways to define it" I am simply trying to define it logically, otherwise we get a R20k per month is middle class definition.

Country makes no difference. What matters is lifestyle and disposable income, which is the same for middle class irrespective of country.
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Country unfortunately makes all the difference.

I can be middle class in the US and rich in Cambodia but earn less in Cambodia.
 
Scooby_Doo said:
Still not defining it - your perspective is up to feelings. A Dubai prince's idea of middle class is going to be vastly different to that of an Indian manual labourer.
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And you are whaffling. I am defining it vaguely, since it is almost impossible to simply define it clearly. Same as it is nearly impossible to clearly define rich and poor.
 
Benedict A55h0le not said:
It is not really relative to anything. Middle class in SA I estimate to start at about R100k per month per household. Then it goes up to about R400k-500k. If you earn R100k per month, you fall into the top 1% of earners. The reality is you are still bottom of the barrel middle class. The joys of living in a 3rd world socialist sh1th0le.
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Working on a figure of 20:1 for Euro, Dollar and Pound to the Rand, that would mean the middle class in Europe, the US and the UK needs to earn between 5,000 and 25,000 of their currency per month. That amount would afford a 3 bedroom house on a plot of 500 - 1000 sq metres in those countries.

Factory Tradesmen. Policemen and Permanent Force Defence Force members could afford what I define as a middle class house in South Africa in the 1970's and 80's as single earners in a family with a stay at home wife. They can no longer. This is due to the massive devaluation of the Rand and massive cost increases of electricity, municipal services, taxes, security and others since the late 90's.

To me, middle class is a lifestyle that an income can afford, not a defined amount of currency. According to one definition, two SASSA pensioners with no extra income living in one house are middle class.

If insurance replacement value for houses is an indicator, South Africa has a depressed economy. Houses selling for around R1 million have an insurance replacement value of around R5-8 million. This indicates just how bad the SA economy has become, with houses selling for far less than their replacement value.

During the 1980's, I knew a policeman, a defence force member, a shipwright and a small business owner living on this street on the Cape Peninsula:

www.google.com

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.
www.google.com www.google.com
 
Benedict A55h0le not said:
And you are whaffling. I am defining it vaguely, since it is almost impossible to simply define it clearly. Same as it is nearly impossible to clearly define rich and poor.
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Don't take it so personally, we just can't have a logical discussion, which is fine. Enjoy defending your little hill, I am sure its worth it.
 
Scooby_Doo said:
Don't take it so personally, we just can't have a logical discussion, which is fine. Enjoy defending your little hill, I am sure its worth it.
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We are not having a logical discussion because you keep demanding that I make some clear simple definition of what middleclass is that a simpleton can understand. Go make up your own definition. Enjoy defending your little hole.
 
Mike Hoxbig said:
Let's see if they call MK racist for differing with their foreign policy. Everyone is starting to reject ANC policy being government policy.


On mobile, please post text @Agent69
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  • The ANC condemned the use of the SA flag during a bilateral meeting between Jacob Zuma and Moroccan officials.
  • During the meeting, Zuma supported Morocco’s autonomy plan, diverging from the ANC government’s stance.
  • The ANC urged a diplomatic protest, criticising Zuma’s actions as damaging to SA’s sovereignty and international integrity.
The ANC has strongly condemned the use of the South African flag during a bilateral meeting between uMkhonto weSizwe (MK) Party president Jacob Zuma and Moroccan government officials.
In a strongly-worded statement released on Saturday afternoon, the ANC said a recent bilateral meeting, held under the guise of diplomacy but laced with brazen contempt for South Africa’s democratic integrity, marked a deeply troubling act of international malpractice.
“It is a dangerous attempt to delegitimise our constitutional order and discredit the authority of a democratically elected government. The inclusion of our national symbols in partisan activities hosted by foreign powers is not only misleading but also part of a broader agenda of foreign interference,” said ANC national spokesperson Mahlengi Bhengu.
Bhengu said the MK Party’s conduct was a “reckless and provocative act” that flagrantly violated international diplomatic norms and was an unacceptable intrusion into South Africa’s internal political affairs.

This is not the first time the ANC has criticised the MK Party for its stance on Morocco. Last month, ANC secretary-general Fikile Mbalula blasted the MK Party for backing Morocco’s sovereignty over Western Sahara.
The ANC has consistently called for the right to self-determination of the people of Western Sahara.
The ANC’s latest reaction was in response to a YouTube video posted by Moroccan media on Wednesday, which showed Zuma on the podium with the South African and the Moroccan flags behind him.
Flags are often used during official bilateral meetings between states.

In the seven-minute clip, Zuma told guests that he now led the MK Party, which was “aimed at changing South Africa”.
He said:
On the basis of that, we linked again with our brothers here, also ready to discuss Africa, as we did when we were here.

“So I decided to come and have a discussion because we believe that Africa must do better and we believe that we are going to succeed to do so.”
Zuma went on to say that it was important for Morocco to have a “feel of our thinking” about Africa’s future.
“We believe Africa must have peace, must be one, and we thought that we should raise those issues with our brothers here so that we are part of what we were dealing with earlier. We think that things have not gone right. We believe that we want to bring things together so that Africa must be Africa for everyone.”

Zuma then handed over to Magasela Mzobe, the MK Party’s head of presidency, who read a statement expressing gratitude to be in Rabat, Morocco, “to deepen the historical bond between the two countries that started during the days of the fight against apartheid”.
Mzobe said the meeting was an extension of a meeting Zuma had with King Mohammed VI in 2017 on the sidelines of an African Union Summit in Côte d’Ivoire.
He told guests the MK Party had proposed a policy position aimed at implementing practical solutions to the longstanding debacle in the Sahel Region.
Mzobe said:
While taking into account the growing international and continental support that the Moroccan Autonomy Proposal has gained over the last couple of years, our party believes that this proposal allows for significant local governance by the people of the Sahara Region, while ensuring that Morocco retains its crucial sovereignty over the Sahara Region.

Mzobe called on the international community to support Morocco’s autonomy plan as a way to ensure peace, stability and prosperity for the people of Western Sahara.
On 16 July, the Gulf Observer reported that Morocco’s Foreign Minister, Nasser Bourita, met Zuma in Rabat on Tuesday in a meeting that “marked a major policy shift”, with the MK Party recognising Morocco’s sovereignty over Western Sahara and endorsing the Moroccan autonomy plan.
“The MK Party’s stance represents a significant departure from the long-held position of South Africa’s ruling African National Congress (ANC), which has traditionally supported the Polisario Front in its bid for Western Sahara’s independence.

“Zuma’s endorsement of Morocco’s sovereignty may signal a shifting landscape within South African politics, potentially redefining the country’s approach to continental alliances and sovereignty disputes,” read the report.
However, this is not the official position of the South African government.
The ANC urged the Department of International Relations and Cooperation to issue a formal diplomatic protest and to demand an immediate explanation and apology from the Moroccan authorities.
Furthermore, the party condemned Zuma’s conduct, saying he was opportunistic.
It said:
He has aligned himself with efforts that erode South Africa’s standing in the international community and betray the principles of non-alignment, peace and anti-colonial solidarity that he once purported to uphold.

“The leader of the MK Party has revealed his true colours by demonstrating a lack of belief in the ANC’s political, economic and ideological principles of progressive internationalism, Pan-Africanism, and solidarity on both international and continental levels.
“It is shameful that a former leader of a liberation movement is betraying our historical mission and showing his true colours as he stands in opposition to the aim of contributing to the creation of a better Africa and world that is more humane, just, equitable, democratic, and free world.“
Bhengu reiterated the party’s call for the completion of the decolonisation process in Africa, in order to safeguard the right to self-determination for African people still under colonial rule.
She said the ANC would continue to strengthen its longstanding and traditional bonds with the Polisario Front, forged in the common struggle against apartheid and colonialism.
MK Party spokesperson Nhlamulo Ndhlela did not respond to News24.
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Nope.

I wonder how much they paid Zuma...
 
The_Right_Honourable_Brit said:
These "wealthy residents" that he seemingly despises often give DA vote shares well in excess of 80% of the vote and which the DA heavily relies on to give them a healthy majority in CT council and in the Western Cape more broadly.
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Despises? What are you on about, man?

It's not like he called EWC on them or that he rants about the "bourgeoisie WMC"...
 
About the middle class thing, this is what google gave me:
Defining the Middle Class (using income as a guide):
  • Stats SA's IES:
    Doesn't explicitly define a middle-class income range, but the data provides a basis for understanding income distribution.
  • Discovery Bank/SARB:
    Suggests a range of R8,300 to R29,200 per month (R100,000 to R350,000 annually) as middle-income.

  • University of Cape Town:
    Indicates that a household income of around R22,000 per month, with a household income below R75,000 per month, is often considered middle-class.

  • Eighty20:
    Defines middle-class workers as those earning between R8,000 and R30,000 per month.

  • Considerations Beyond Income:
    Other factors like assets, lifestyle, and access to services also play a role in defining the middle class.
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Keep in mind, you're an AI moaner if you don't believe in the new Madlanga Commission...

  • A National Anti-Corruption Advisory Council report was submitted in May 2024.
  • Ramaphosa has made no public announcement regarding the implementation of this report or its contents.
  • Nacac aims to propose the establishment of a chapter 9 institution with the authority to conduct audits and seize assets.
President Cyril Ramaphosa last week announced the formation of a commission of inquiry into allegations of corruption and political interference within the police, despite having two reports on investigations into similar shortcomings.
A report by the National Anti-Corruption Advisory Council (Nacac) has been on Ramaphosa’s desk since May 2024. This report allegedly provides a detailed analysis on how law enforcement agencies can better coordinate to identify and combat corruption.
However, to date, Ramaphosa has made no public announcement regarding the implementation of this report or its contents.
The establishment of Nacac was announced by Ramaphosa during his state of the nation address in February 2021, amid widespread tender fraud during the Covid-19 pandemic.

Despite the council’s announcement, its members were only appointed on 29 August 2022.

Professor Firoz Cachalia, who will act as police minister from next month because Senzo Mchunu has been placed on special leave, chairs the council.
According to government sources, Cachalia is expected to use the Nacac report to strengthen the capabilities and independence of law enforcement agencies, and to better facilitate collaboration and coordination between such agencies.

In November, at a conference held by constitutional watchdog the Council for the Advancement of the SA Constitution, Cachalia stated that he wanted to release the full Nacac report and its findings, but that bureaucratic red tape had prevented this.
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He revealed that Nacac aims to propose the establishment of a chapter 9 institution with the authority to conduct audits and seize assets.
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Simple, just tell ANC to vote for Aunty Glynnis' Bill for Scorpions 2...
Cachalia also wants this organisation to have the power to investigate corruption without infringing on the mandate of the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation (the Hawks).


This organisation should also be able to prepare cases under the supervision of the National Prosecuting Authority to expedite the investigation process.
Ramaphosa has also been sitting for over three years on a report prepared by a panel investigating serious shortcomings in the response of security forces – particularly the police and intelligence services – to the July 2021 riots, during which more than 300 people died.

The panel, led by Professor Sandy Africa, was also tasked with recommending ways to strengthen the country’s related capabilities.

This report was completed in November 2021 but was only released in February 2022. It revealed that violent unrest and destructive looting could recur in South Africa if the social and political conditions were not addressed.
The police and intelligence services were especially criticised in the report for their slow response to the unrest, which resulted in at least 354 deaths and caused R50 billion in economic damage, while factional fighting within the ANC was also identified as a contributing factor to the violence.
The arrest of former President Jacob Zuma triggered the unrest.
Among the recommendations made by Africa were that the police service, crime intelligence and national intelligence services be stabilised and depoliticised.
This is how the ANC defended previous commissions on social media.


However, there is no indication that any of these recommendations have been implemented.
Despite his lack of action on previous recommendations to strengthen law enforcement units, Ramaphosa last Sunday appointed a commission of inquiry headed by acting Deputy Chief Justice Mbuyiseli Madlanga.
Madlanga will investigate explosive claims of political interference and corruption brought by Lieutenant General Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi, the KwaZulu-Natal police commissioner.

Mkhwanazi has, among other things, accused Mchunu of political interference and claimed that the police task force investigating political murders was dissolved because it uncovered a syndicate with links to politicians, law enforcement officials, prosecutors and judges.

The ANC has since taken it upon itself to defend Ramaphosa’s decision to establish a commission of inquiry, citing the successes of previous inquiries such as the state capture commission and that probing the SA Revenue Service.
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