SA Politics Thread Part 11: The GNU Normal

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Agent69 said:
To use clifton as an example.

www.property24.com

Clifton, Cape Town Property : Property and houses for sale in Clifton, Cape Town : Property24.com

Property for sale in Clifton, Cape Town.
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Is 4.5 million for a single-room apartment middle-class?

Even asked ChatGPT: In the context of South Africa—and particularly Cape Town—paying R4.5 million for a single-room apartment in Clifton is not middle class. That is firmly upper class or wealthy territory.
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What is "middleclass" can not be defined relative to a country. Middleclass is defined by lifestyle and purchasing power and this has no relation to the country. R4.5m for a property is about middle to lower middleclass.
 
Vrotappel said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1946107834443198711
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It's insulting to SA to have a president who stuffs wheelbarrow loads of unexplained dollars in his couch and was one of Zuma's closest allies during state capture. And this same president wants to complain about harsh words? Quite frankly that is both insulting and utterly nonsensical behavior, certainly not befitting of any president of a country.

Ramaphosa is not a president and neither is the ANC a government. They are crisis actors and financial opportunists.
 
Solarion said:
It's insulting to SA to have a president who stuffs wheelbarrow loads of unexplained dollars in his couch and was one of Zuma's closest allies during state capture. And this same president wants to complain about harsh words? Quite frankly that is both insulting and utterly nonsensical behavior, certainly not befitting of any president of a country.

Ramaphosa is not a president and neither is the ANC a government. They are crisis actors and financial opportunists.
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You forgot criminals.
 
Benedict A55h0le not said:
What is "middleclass" can not be defined relative to a country. Middleclass is defined by lifestyle and purchasing power and this has no relation to the country. R4.5m for a property is about middle to lower middleclass.
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LOL

Ok R4.5 million has a repayment over 20 years of about R45kpm or R540k / year

Based on the basic rule that bond should not be more than 30% of gross income this indicates that there is a yearly sallary of R1.8 million
That kind of sallary puts you in the top 1% to .5% of income earners in the country.
Maybe you want to reevaluate your statement "4.5m for a property is about middle to lower middleclass."

This is from a 2022/3 Statssa survey
1752940755882.png
 
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Major Boredom said:
LOL

Ok R4.5 million has a repayment over 20 years of about R45kpm or R540k / year

Based on the basic rule that bond should not be more than 30% of gross income this indicates that there is a yearly sallary of R1.8 million
That kind of sallary puts you in the top 1% to .5% of income earners in the country.
Maybe you want to reevaluate your statement "4.5m for a property is about middle to lower middleclass."

This is from a 2022/3 Statssa survey
View attachment 1835645
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Lol your stats and facts just prove what I say. R1.8m income for a household is still not near upper class in real terms, not even close.

3 Shacks on an island, 1 large shack, 1 medium shack, 1 small shack. The medium shack is middleclass and the big shack is rich class? Nope, they are all still poor class. Same with SA, middleclass in relation to SA is still poor class in real terms. Because middleclass is not defined by relative position in the population, it is defined by lifestyle and purchasing power irrespective of country or relative position. In relation to SA, earning R20k per month is considered middleclass, yet according to real purchasing power, R20k per month is dirt poor class. Same with Zim, what they consider middleclass there is not middleclass at all, it is poor class.
 
Benedict A55h0le not said:
Lol your stats and facts just prove what I say. R1.8m income for a household is still not near upper class in real terms, not even close.

3 Shacks on an island, 1 large shack, 1 medium shack, 1 small shack. The medium shack is middleclass and the big shack is rich class? Nope, they are all still poor class. Same with SA, middleclass in relation to SA is still poor class in real terms. Because middleclass is not defined by relative position in the population, it is defined by lifestyle and purchasing power irrespective of country or relative position. In relation to SA, earning R20k per month is considered middleclass, yet according to real purchasing power, R20k per month is dirt poor class. Same with Zim, what they consider middleclass there is not middleclass at all, it is poor class.
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This is an interesting argument. I always considered middle class as being able to afford a free standing 3 bedroomed house with a garden and garage on a plot of about 500 - 1000 sq metres and a good second hand car. They could occasionally go to a restaurant and could afford movie tickets. They went on holiday once a year.

Lower middle class lived in townhouses or denser housing developments.

Upper middle class had a pool in their bigger yard and 4 or 5 bedrooms.

Depending on the GDP and earnings per capita, this would determine whether the country had more or less middle class people, no matter the currency.

In the early 1990's, a visiting American told me that South Africa had a bigger middle class than most countries he'd visited outside of Europe and North America. Sadly, that has declined drastically.
 
Benedict A55h0le not said:
Lol your stats and facts just prove what I say. R1.8m income for a household is still not near upper class in real terms, not even close.

3 Shacks on an island, 1 large shack, 1 medium shack, 1 small shack. The medium shack is middleclass and the big shack is rich class? Nope, they are all still poor class. Same with SA, middleclass in relation to SA is still poor class in real terms. Because middleclass is not defined by relative position in the population, it is defined by lifestyle and purchasing power irrespective of country or relative position. In relation to SA, earning R20k per month is considered middleclass, yet according to real purchasing power, R20k per month is dirt poor class. Same with Zim, what they consider middleclass there is not middleclass at all, it is poor class.
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Define real terms.

Us$/euro lifestyle ?
 
GHL needs to think carefully about this - he's attacking some of his most loyal (well perhaps not towards him but the DA) supporters. Not that they will suddenly go off and vote ANC/MK/EFF in the municipal elections, but they might sit on their hands next year. These "wealthy residents" that he seemingly despises often give DA vote shares well in excess of 80% of the vote and which the DA heavily relies on to give them a healthy majority in CT council and in the Western Cape more broadly.
 
Solarion said:
It's insulting to SA to have a president who stuffs wheelbarrow loads of unexplained dollars in his couch and was one of Zuma's closest allies during state capture. And this same president wants to complain about harsh words? Quite frankly that is both insulting and utterly nonsensical behavior, certainly not befitting of any president of a country.

Ramaphosa is not a president and neither is the ANC a government. They are crisis actors and financial opportunists. THIEVES. CORRUPT THIEVING BUNTS.
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Scooby_Doo said:
Relative to what then?
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It is not really relative to anything. Middle class in SA I estimate to start at about R100k per month per household. Then it goes up to about R400k-500k. If you earn R100k per month, you fall into the top 1% of earners. The reality is you are still bottom of the barrel middle class. The joys of living in a 3rd world socialist sh1th0le.
 
Benedict A55h0le not said:
It is not really relative to anything. Middle class in SA I estimate to start at about R100k per month per household. Then it goes up to about R400k-500k. If you earn R100k per month, you fall into the top 1% of earners. The reality is you are still bottom of the barrel middle class. The joys of living in a 3rd world socialist sh1th0le.
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You have to have that relative to something, what is middle class, can you define it?

Edit,

Are you comparing it the US or EU? Global income? China?
 
Benedict A55h0le not said:
It is not really relative to anything. Middle class in SA I estimate to start at about R100k per month per household. Then it goes up to about R400k-500k. If you earn R100k per month, you fall into the top 1% of earners. The reality is you are still bottom of the barrel middle class. The joys of living in a 3rd world socialist sh1th0le.
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So you think anyone earning less than 500k a month is merely middle class?

Oh what a weird and warped poor existence you have Benny. How do you ever cope with reality?
 
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