Scottish Referendum on Independence

Should Scotland be an independent country?

  • Yes

    Votes: 59 53.2%

  • No

    Votes: 52 46.8%
  • Total voters
    111
  • Poll closed .
ghoti said:
We already have the people in Orania trying to be nationalist. And the Suitlanders in WC. Its sad. South Africa has its own history with breaking away from the UK because of nationalists..... wasnt our proudest moment. It lead to Apartheid.
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Yet if you don't have nationalism what you have is the beginning of a failed state, where allegiances lie elsewhere like ethnicity or tribes. Do I really need to give examples of that?
 
ghoti said:
How so? Like what are the key differences between the way the UK and the EU do it?
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The Eu offers a framework for representative democracy (which is obviously subject to member states) and not all states do it in a similar fashion. Which is why Süd-Triool and Catalonia are watching the movement in scottland with open eyes.

Belgium, offers recognition to the culture of the German speaking minority or Holland with the Frieslanders, Austria, Germany and France all recognize minorities to some degree in their constitution (or legislation) and promotes the usage of minority language and cultural traditions. Switzerland is also a nice example where cantons have a unique historical culture and where more direct democracy takes place.

In 1995 the EU commission adopted the frame work of protection of minorities and it's recommendations are still being implemented in Europe. http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/minorities/6_Resources/PDF_NatMin_FactSheet_final_2012_en.pdf

Europe saw the extreme horror of minority oppression during WW2, which is why minorities there aren't so nationalistic or threatened today (as pointed out there are some exceptions).

The English speaking world in general has always tried to promote a one culture, one language on man system, while Europe embraced minorities to be more than just those people in the small corner.
 
Nicodeamus said:
The Eu offers a framework for representative democracy (which is obviously subject to member states) and not all states do it in a similar fashion. Which is why Süd-Triool and Catalonia are watching the movement in scottland with open eyes.

Belgium, offers recognition to the culture of the German speaking minority or Holland with the Frieslanders, Austria, Germany and France all recognize minorities to some degree in their constitution (or legislation) and promotes the usage of minority language and cultural traditions. Switzerland is also a nice example where cantons have a unique historical culture and where more direct democracy takes place.

In 1995 the EU commission adopted the frame work of protection of minorities and it's recommendations are still being implemented in Europe. http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/minorities/6_Resources/PDF_NatMin_FactSheet_final_2012_en.pdf

Europe saw the extreme horror of minority oppression during WW2, which is why minorities there aren't so nationalistic or threatened today (as pointed out there are some exceptions).

The English speaking world in general has always tried to promote a one culture, one language on man system, while Europe embraced minorities to be more than just those people in the small corner.
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Scotland have their own country. Thats way better than the german speakers in Belgium. Scotland have strong representation in labour. Its not like they were voiceless. I think the UK should join the EU, so I dont mind it if a part of the UK joins it one piece at a time :P

This is an interesting issue that needs to be addressed in the EU system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union
 
ghoti said:
Scotland have their own country. Thats way better than the german speakers in Belgium. Scotland have strong representation in labour. Its not like they were voiceless.
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They vote for a labour government every year, but England votes conservative. The German speakers in Belgium have something very similar to what the scots have.

And yet, the German-speaking community of the East Cantons, as a linguistic minority within the federal state of Belgium, faces similar challenges to those causing strife between "the big two."



The german minority have their own parliament in the capital of Eupen and control over linguistic and cultural matters. The parliament organizes elections, the regional government, and adopts laws for the German-speaking community.

The German Cantons also have committees governing areas the education, social policy, medicare and labour.

That is quite a big thing that the Belgium are doing for only a mere 150 000 people. Ironically belgium is fighting over the French and Flemmish language, while they have granted all those rights to the Germans.

The fact is that if you treat your minorities well, then they will have no reason to leave.

My point is that the European frame work of democracy recognize limited rights to minorities and do not promote a one nation one culture version.
 
Threats against journalists covering the Scottish independence referendum have continued today, with Sky News presenter Kay Burley rounding on a nationalist who had been trying to hit her cameraman live on air.

With feelings approaching boiling point, campaigners have been accused of targeting reporters trying to cover the campaign with harassment and abuse.

It comes as half of all No voters said they have felt physically threatened by Yes supporters.

Ms Burley made her remark during a live broadcast from Aberdeen after she was repeatedly heckled as she broadcast a series of reports.

At one point, unaware her mic was live, she was clearly heard to call one campaigner 'a bit of a k**b'.

The presenter later claimed she made the remark after a Yes campaigner tried 'to hit' one of her cameramen with a stick

...
BBC Newsnight presenter Kirsty Wark apologised on air after a Yes campaigner interrupted the show by shouting and swearing
Earlier this week, BBC Newsnight presenter Wark had to issue an on air apology after a live broadcast was interrupted by a heckler.
Ms Wark was presenting Newsnight from an outdoor studio in Dundee when her broadcast was interrupted by someone shouting and swearing.
...

ITN presenter Tom Brady has also complained about the behaviour of the Yes campaign towards journalists, writing that the bullying and intimidation he has been on the receiving end of is worse than he experienced when covering the Troubles in Northern Ireland.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-k-b-live-air-tried-hit-cameraman-stick.html

Very obvious which side is engaging in more intimidation than the other.

Why can't the Yes campaign be decent, civilised and mature?
 
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Latest Scottish independence poll suggests yes campaign closing gap

Ipsos-Mori survey for STV puts support for a no vote at 51% after excluding those who were undecided

A new poll released the evening before theScottish independence*referendum put the lead for the no campaign at two percentage points, after four other polls in the past 24 hours indicated that the pro-union side would win more comfortably, with 52% of the vote.

The Ipsos-Mori poll for STV puts support for the yes campaign at 49%, compared with 51% for no, excluding people who were undecided.

When the 5% who said they didn't know are included, 49% back staying in the union, compared with 47% in favour of independence. This represents a seven-point increase in support for the yes campaign, and a seven-point drop in support for no, since the last poll released by STV on 5 August on the night of the first televised debate between Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling.

More : http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/latest-scottish-independence-poll-ipsos-mori
 
MickeyD said:
How will this affect me as a Seffican and should I care?
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You might need multiple visas if you want to visit both Scotland and England. The SNP say that it won't be an issue and that they will probably follow the UK's visa policy.
 
cr@zydude said:
You might need multiple visas if you want to visit both Scotland and England. The SNP say that it won't be an issue and that they will probably follow the UK's visa policy.
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hopefully they adopt the Irish principle.
 
Nicodeamus said:
hopefully they adopt the Irish principle.
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Visa free for SA? They want to have open borders with the UK, but there is no guarantee that they won't have to join the Schengen area to join the EU. If they join Schengen the UK will want border checks.

I do find this odd though, as the Republic of Ireland already has a different visa policy, and still keeps its open border with the UK. Maybe that border isn't considered a significant risk, or too people enter Ireland in the first place.
 
cr@zydude said:
Visa free for SA? They want to have open borders with the UK, but there is no guarantee that they won't have to join the Schengen area to join the EU. If they join Schengen the UK will want border checks.

I do find this odd though, as the Republic of Ireland already has a different visa policy, and still keeps its open border with the UK. Maybe that border isn't considered a significant risk, or too people enter Ireland in the first place.
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Well, the SA document is actually quite secure, it is just a bunch of idiots who issue it.
 
OrbitalDawn said:
Which is nationalism in a different dress. The reasoning is generally the same.
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Yes, but my point to ghoti is that the countries worldwide that don't have a strong national identity typically tend to turn strongly toward theistic and ethnicity based identities. If you look at a map of the world, you will see these countries are generally in the third world and quite a few are effective failed states.

While rampant nationalism is inherently dangerous, nationalism does address a basic human need of belonging and identity. Remove that, and the stability of the world will be threatened.
 
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