Hamish McPanji
Honorary Master
@Chris , you still didn't address the question Spizz asked. Why are they so desperate to hold on when there is supposedly no benefit to them?
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Scottish Referendum on Independence
- Thread starter LazyLion
- Start date
Nom Chompsky
High Tory
Well I guess there is a business benefit for businesses based in England - perhaps lower transactional costs and the like. Surely you can see that dealing with one country is easier than dealing with two countries. Many UK companies have come out saying costs will be higher in Scotland than England if independence is granted. So certainly keep costs lower will benefit consumers and businesses as there will be a greater demand for their products.
Also, many people who are pro-Union refer to the shared history of England & Scotland (note: this is not an economic argument so even if you think Scotland relies too much on subsidies, your preference for unity might over ride that) which is rich & vibrant. This is more of a 'waffly' argument I guess, not based on any precise estimates or the like.
Then of course, David Cameron and Milliband will most likely be forced to resign if the Union breaks up so they probably not being pro Union for 'genuine' reasons but more to save their own skins.
Jeez, and what's this?!!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...d-three-registered-to-vote-in-referendum.html
Hamish McPanji
Honorary Master
Jeez, and what's this?!!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...d-three-registered-to-vote-in-referendum.html
That's a 'I dont really know, or I havent figured it out and so let me change the subject' . Kudos to you, it was well done.
and not to mention all those teens (16+) who are eligible to vote. What do they know about the bigger picture at that age?
Mortymoose
Honorary Master
Wonder when I will able to apply for my Scottish Passport?
Back in the day, when I was about 22, my father applied for a new British passport, I had also applied for mine the month before....anyhow, a few short weeks later, Jock's passport arrived, he was enraged, ranting and raving, he had received one of those new Euro red passports, " Anglo feckin Wog passport!" , " What the feckin ****e is this?" It was amusing to watch him blaming everone from Thatcher to Churchill, it was even more entertaining a few days later when my passport arrived, it was still the old black type......"You bastard!", he shouted at me....,"You were'nt even born there, you colonial curnt!"...... My Dad was one of those larger than life guys who my brothers and I would intentionally try and wind up.....
Back in the day, when I was about 22, my father applied for a new British passport, I had also applied for mine the month before....anyhow, a few short weeks later, Jock's passport arrived, he was enraged, ranting and raving, he had received one of those new Euro red passports, " Anglo feckin Wog passport!" , " What the feckin ****e is this?" It was amusing to watch him blaming everone from Thatcher to Churchill, it was even more entertaining a few days later when my passport arrived, it was still the old black type......"You bastard!", he shouted at me....,"You were'nt even born there, you colonial curnt!"...... My Dad was one of those larger than life guys who my brothers and I would intentionally try and wind up.....
Nom Chompsky
High Tory
No, 3 paragraphs before I posted that link are the reasons.
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
SCOTLAND BRACES FOR HISTORIC INDEPENDENCE VOTE
The campaign for Scotland's independence referendum went down to the wire on Wednesday ahead of a knife-edge vote that will either see Scotland break away from the United Kingdom or gain sweeping new powers.
The "Yes" and "No" camps mobilised thousands of volunteers to take to the streets across Scotland in a final push to win over undecided voters in a heated debate that has fired up Scots on both sides.
Three new opinion polls suggested a very narrow majority against independence but showed that the undecideds could swing it either way with just hours to go before polls open on Thursday at 0600 GMT.
"I'm really optimistic that if we do have independence, we can start building a society that works for all of us," said 24-year-old Sam Hollick, a "Yes" activist from the Green Party who was campaigning at a stand in Edinburgh blaring a song by Scottish band The Proclaimers.
But at a "No" rally in Glasgow, former British prime minister Gordon Brown appealed to Scots' wartime patriotism and said voting against separation would still mean Scotland gaining much greater local power.
"We fought two world wars together," he told hundreds of supporters.
"There's not a cemetery in Europe that doesn't have a Scot, a Welshman, an Irish and an Englishman side by side. When they fought together, they never asked each other where they came from," he said.
Differences over whether to support "Yes" or "No" have divided families and lifelong friends and the Church of Scotland on Wednesday called for "a spirit of unity" and "cool heads and calm hearts".
The rise in support for the "Yes" campaign has also sent jitters through the financial markets, helping to bring down the value of the pound and dragging down the stocks of Scotland-based companies.
Scotland's pro-independence First Minister Alex Salmond has dismissed the economic arguments -- including what currency an independent Scotland would use as the Bank of England has ruled out a currency union -- as "scaremongering" by the "No" campaign.
In a letter to the people of Scotland, Salmond urged the electorate to seize its historic chance to end the 307-year-old union with England.
"Wake up on Friday morning to the first day of a better country. Wake up knowing you did this -- you made it happen," Salmond wrote.
"It's about taking your country's future into your hands. Don't let this opportunity slip through our fingers. Don't let them tell us we can't. Let's do this."
But Heather Whiteside, a 21-year-old graduate from Glasgow University who came to see Brown at a campaign event in the city said the prospect of a "Yes" victory was "very scary".
"Nationalism is a bad kind of politics, it tries to create artificial barriers between people," she said.
A "Yes" victory would not mean independence overnight but would sound the starting gun on months and possibly years of complex negotiations on separating two deeply linked economic systems.
It could lead to Prime Minister David Cameron's resignation and would embolden other separatist movements around the world.
Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy weighed in on the debate on Wednesday, branding moves for independence like Spain's Catalonia region a "torpedo" to European integration.
"Everyone in Europe thinks that these processes are hugely negative," financially and economically, Rajoy told the Spanish parliament.
All three polls in Wednesday's papers showed that going it alone would be rejected by 52 percent to 48 percent, with undecided voters excluded.
But the results were within margins of error and many commentators have said the final outcome is "too close to call" ahead of time.
Record numbers have registered for the referendum -- 97 percent of eligible voters -- and turnout is expected to be very high with officials saying it could be around 80 percent.
In Edinburgh, Fatima Somner, a 45-year-old cashier of Moroccan origin married to an Englishman, said she was hoping for a "No" victory.
"People who will vote 'no' are the ones who have money. Poorer people are going to vote 'yes'," she said.
"They hope that things will change for the better for them. But it will be the opposite, everything will become more expensive!"
But many said they were keen to make a final break with London.
"I've been ruled by Westminster governments for too long," said Frank Evans, a 62-year-old in Glasgow at a "Yes" rally filled with flags --including one celebrating a famous Scottish victory over the English at the Battle of Bannockburn in the Wars of Independence in 1314.
"I am very confident. Yes, we'll win. I might be having a little bit of a dance in the city to celebrate," he said. Behind him a banner read: "Break the chains, Scotland".
Source : Sapa-AFP /mr
Date : 17 Sep 2014 18:05
The campaign for Scotland's independence referendum went down to the wire on Wednesday ahead of a knife-edge vote that will either see Scotland break away from the United Kingdom or gain sweeping new powers.
The "Yes" and "No" camps mobilised thousands of volunteers to take to the streets across Scotland in a final push to win over undecided voters in a heated debate that has fired up Scots on both sides.
Three new opinion polls suggested a very narrow majority against independence but showed that the undecideds could swing it either way with just hours to go before polls open on Thursday at 0600 GMT.
"I'm really optimistic that if we do have independence, we can start building a society that works for all of us," said 24-year-old Sam Hollick, a "Yes" activist from the Green Party who was campaigning at a stand in Edinburgh blaring a song by Scottish band The Proclaimers.
But at a "No" rally in Glasgow, former British prime minister Gordon Brown appealed to Scots' wartime patriotism and said voting against separation would still mean Scotland gaining much greater local power.
"We fought two world wars together," he told hundreds of supporters.
"There's not a cemetery in Europe that doesn't have a Scot, a Welshman, an Irish and an Englishman side by side. When they fought together, they never asked each other where they came from," he said.
Differences over whether to support "Yes" or "No" have divided families and lifelong friends and the Church of Scotland on Wednesday called for "a spirit of unity" and "cool heads and calm hearts".
The rise in support for the "Yes" campaign has also sent jitters through the financial markets, helping to bring down the value of the pound and dragging down the stocks of Scotland-based companies.
Scotland's pro-independence First Minister Alex Salmond has dismissed the economic arguments -- including what currency an independent Scotland would use as the Bank of England has ruled out a currency union -- as "scaremongering" by the "No" campaign.
In a letter to the people of Scotland, Salmond urged the electorate to seize its historic chance to end the 307-year-old union with England.
"Wake up on Friday morning to the first day of a better country. Wake up knowing you did this -- you made it happen," Salmond wrote.
"It's about taking your country's future into your hands. Don't let this opportunity slip through our fingers. Don't let them tell us we can't. Let's do this."
But Heather Whiteside, a 21-year-old graduate from Glasgow University who came to see Brown at a campaign event in the city said the prospect of a "Yes" victory was "very scary".
"Nationalism is a bad kind of politics, it tries to create artificial barriers between people," she said.
A "Yes" victory would not mean independence overnight but would sound the starting gun on months and possibly years of complex negotiations on separating two deeply linked economic systems.
It could lead to Prime Minister David Cameron's resignation and would embolden other separatist movements around the world.
Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy weighed in on the debate on Wednesday, branding moves for independence like Spain's Catalonia region a "torpedo" to European integration.
"Everyone in Europe thinks that these processes are hugely negative," financially and economically, Rajoy told the Spanish parliament.
All three polls in Wednesday's papers showed that going it alone would be rejected by 52 percent to 48 percent, with undecided voters excluded.
But the results were within margins of error and many commentators have said the final outcome is "too close to call" ahead of time.
Record numbers have registered for the referendum -- 97 percent of eligible voters -- and turnout is expected to be very high with officials saying it could be around 80 percent.
In Edinburgh, Fatima Somner, a 45-year-old cashier of Moroccan origin married to an Englishman, said she was hoping for a "No" victory.
"People who will vote 'no' are the ones who have money. Poorer people are going to vote 'yes'," she said.
"They hope that things will change for the better for them. But it will be the opposite, everything will become more expensive!"
But many said they were keen to make a final break with London.
"I've been ruled by Westminster governments for too long," said Frank Evans, a 62-year-old in Glasgow at a "Yes" rally filled with flags --including one celebrating a famous Scottish victory over the English at the Battle of Bannockburn in the Wars of Independence in 1314.
"I am very confident. Yes, we'll win. I might be having a little bit of a dance in the city to celebrate," he said. Behind him a banner read: "Break the chains, Scotland".
Source : Sapa-AFP /mr
Date : 17 Sep 2014 18:05
Lol. Well i'm be passing through London next week and I'm wondering if I'll be a foreigner or not. But it's surreal to think of perhaps having to apply for a Scottish passport :wtf:
Agree with that. So backwards and tribal
A very powerful populist tool. You dont have to have any solid plans if you start waving a flag around.
Nom Chompsky
High Tory
Wow, these maps of voting intention are amazing:
http://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...dence-voting-intention-across-scotland-mapped.
Unfortunately shows the division of the country. Compare Glasgow to Edinburgh or Aberdeen.
http://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...dence-voting-intention-across-scotland-mapped.
Unfortunately shows the division of the country. Compare Glasgow to Edinburgh or Aberdeen.
Agree with that. So backwards and tribal
And that's all very well if you are not disenfranchised and you don't need to wave a flag around, but self determination is a basic right and a major driving force of people at the wrong end of the power.
I'm sure if SA entered a political union with Zimbabwe and they used Harare as the seat of power, you just might have a different take on things
Nicodeamus
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“Net so min as jy wat die oostewind met n sif kan keer,
net so min as jy die branders van die see met n besem kan terugvee,
net so min kan jy nasionalisme keer”
No matter how backwards tribalism whether in the form of nationalism or religious fanaticism will always be with us.
net so min as jy die branders van die see met n besem kan terugvee,
net so min kan jy nasionalisme keer”
No matter how backwards tribalism whether in the form of nationalism or religious fanaticism will always be with us.
And that's all very well if you are not disenfranchised and you don't need to wave a flag around, but self determination is a basic right and a major driving force of people at the wrong end of the power.
I'm sure if SA entered a political union with Zimbabwe and they used Harare as the seat of power, you just might have a different take on things
We already have the people in Orania trying to be nationalist. And the Suitlanders in WC. Its sad. South Africa has its own history with breaking away from the UK because of nationalists..... wasnt our proudest moment. It lead to Apartheid.
all of the above
and their legal system has been properly independent throughout the Union - with English law actually being civilized by the Scots in so many fields ...
The real issues in contention have actually got ****all to do with England and everything to do with the last 70 years of Westminster gamemanship.
Yeah, the people of Athens regularly want to attack the people of Volos (they used to be separate countries).
Thats my way of saying its stupid. Along with racism. People though eventually do get over it, as we have seen in basically every country in the world bar a few.
Nicodeamus
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Macedonia and Athens comes to mind, that being said the European framework of democracy offers a much better solution to minorities than the one man one vote one of Westminster. It took the EU two world wars to discover that.
Nicodeamus
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EU has one man, one vote. Unless you know anyone who is not allowed to vote?
They offer way more minority protection.
How so? Like what are the key differences between the way the UK and the EU do it?