Scottish Referendum on Independence

[Nicodeamus]

There seems to be a march in Catalonia today as well, the fact is that self-determination is no longer a fringe idea as it was 20 years ago. Their independence vote is in november.

 

[Nicodeamus]

Well I think a lot of people will care as they have had a shared heritage for a long time. I know if Zuma allowed the Western Cape to have a referendum and they voted to break off. I would be a bit sad if WC was no longer part of SA. I think a lot of British people (many Scots included) would care.

At the end of the day heritage is not going to put bread on the table. The Scotts on average are richer than the English and the same case can be made for that catalans. As I said earlier, minorities in most cases outperform their country counterparts. The British government has already given a lot of regional rights to scottland, it was a matter of time before full independence is pushed.

I am more curious about the sterling.

 

[w1z4rd]

There seems to be a march in Catalonia today as well, the fact is that self-determination is no longer a fringe idea as it was 20 years ago. Their independence vote is in november.

Well they were pretty popular movements in 79 and 97 as well. So I dont think its been as fringe as you think.

 

[w1z4rd]

As I said earlier, minorities in most cases outperform their country counterparts. T
.

Aborigines, eskimos and native american indians say whaaat?

 

[Nicodeamus]

Well they were pretty popular movements in 79 and 97 as well. So I dont think its been as fringe as you think.

The British parliamentary system of one man one vote in my opinion is outdated and not compatible with the European framework. There is no massive popular independence movement among the Germans in Belgium or Italy or all the minorities in France, because the European framework since WW2 protects minorities or at least offers them more rights.

 

[Nicodeamus]

Aborigines, eskimos and native american indians say whaaat?

in most cases

SA is a good example, even our immigrants minorities outperform the local labour. The same is found in the USA. There are obvious exceptions, Eskimoes, African American, Spanish Americans are underperformers.

 

[w1z4rd]

The British parliamentary system of one man one vote in my opinion is outdated and not compatible with the European framework. There is no massive popular independence movement among the Germans in Belgium or Italy or all the minorities in France, because the European framework since WW2 protects minorities or at least offers them more rights.

Most people in the EU have worked out nationalization is a little silly. Especially in an age of global economics. I would be happy if the Scotts left the British system and integrated more with a bigger state system like the EU. If what Chris said is correct, they going to need the deep pockets of the EU to get far.

 

[w1z4rd]

in most cases

SA is a good example, even our immigrants minorities outperform the local labour. The same is found in the USA. There are obvious exceptions, Eskimoes, African American, Spanish Americans are underperformers.

So basically half the world then You just like that 'fact' cause ure a minority Be it true or not

Im pretty confident just as many places where minorities do well in there are places where they do bad in. So I dont buy the "most cases" stat you brought up. Feels thumb sucked or cherry picked

PS. The Khoi-San say whaaaat

 

[Nicodeamus]

So basically half the world then You just like that 'fact' cause ure a minority Be it true or not

Im pretty confident just as many places where minorities do well in there are places where they do bad in. So I dont buy the "most cases" stat you brought up. Feels thumb sucked or cherry picked

PS. The Khoi-San say whaaaat

Not entirely true. Japanese Americans, Irish Americans, German Americans - outperforming.

In SA, Zimbabweans, Malawians, Afrikaners, English - outperforming the local populace. Even the average Venda South African is richer (although I'm sure Ramaposa scews the stats a bit)

Here is the article on the book. I have it on pdf if you really want to read it (only 139 pages). S

In Africa the Indians founded the textile industry and throughout the outperform the local populace.
The Catalonia is is no different.
In Scottland it is no different.
In Malaysia the Chinese minority (despite suffering affirmative action discrimination, owns most of the land).
In Sri Lanka, the tamils were better off
In Nigeria the ebus.
In Czechoslovakia the germans in the Sudetenland were more skilled on average than the rest of the country (the majority discriminated against them, and then was surprised when they liked the nazis!).

A well documented study of this was done by the Hoover institute by the American economist Thomas sowell. I suggest that you read his book called ''intellectuals and race''.

http://www.educationviews.org/minority-groups-who-outperform-except-in-us/

 

[Spizz]

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-16477990



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-1-600-year-spent-English.html#ixzz3D6h0sMrb

(2) Lies by Alex Salmond:



http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/09/salmonds-nhs-claims-have-been-shredded-ifs



http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/bla...pendence-alex-salmond-campaign_b_3718031.html

You obviously not looking hard enough.

So you happy with voting for independence even though the party in power literally has no plans? Interesting. Wee Eck and his merry band of socialists leading Scotland into the abyss. Luckily I think it will still swing to a 'No' vote, but only just.

Also I really don't understand this nonsense about because they vote Labour like a bunch of sheep time & time again but sometimes get a Tory government, they should secede. Should Democrat states like NY, Illinois etc secede when there is a Republican president power and vice-versa? The North of England also generally votes Labour (although UKIP are making some inroads up there) but part of democracy is not always getting the government you voted for.

Oh and this gem:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ed-of-day-of-reckoning-if-Scots-vote-Yes.html

You know what Chris, I've followed this whole thing and read and kept quiet for such a long time, and wish I'd just kept my gob shut for another week.

I've read every claim and counter claim from pensions to oil to currency to health and the outcome depends on the agenda of who you are talking to. They are politicians after all. My reasoning is that the Westminster lot are fighting for their jobs. What's Salmonds excuse?

He's leading a party of independence and the policies are the parties and they are as old as the union. They're not his.

But as I was saying, the backwards and forwards is getting really tedious and thankfully it seems to have moved beyond this type of claim and counter claim some weeks ago.

For example. Pick any of your snippets and type into Google for a counter claim. I just did the old subsidy one and this is the first hit from the independent 2 days ago....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...lly-sucking-up-a-massive-subsidy-9723797.html

" Fairness is often in the eye of the beholder, but the above doesn’t look to me like a picture of Scots sucking up an outrageous public spending subsidy from the rest of the United Kingdom."

And...

"Scots contribute more than any English region outside the South East and East, reflecting the fact that their average incomes are high relative to the rest of the UK."

So it's up to the individual now and from my observations, most have moved beyond the BS and are contemplating otherwise.

 

[Mortymoose]

Still Sober...... feeling a wee bit tense....

[video=youtube;KX6w_-QMH3E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX6w_-QMH3E[/video]

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Well I think a lot of people will care as they have had a shared heritage for a long time. I know if Zuma allowed the Western Cape to have a referendum and they voted to break off. I would be a bit sad if WC was no longer part of SA. I think a lot of British people (many Scots included) would care.

Bit of a false equivalence there, I reckon. Scotland was an independent kingdom in 843 and there have been independence movements and wars and ideas since then. This is also part of the shared heritage.

Regardless, it's not the same country as England, and it should only be up to the Scots if they're independent or not. Now, I don't think it's the same as in William Wallace's days, naturally, which is why I'm wondering about the actual benefits and drawbacks for Scotland and the UK.

 

[Spizz]

Bit of a false equivalence there, I reckon. Scotland was an independent kingdom in 843 and there have been independence movements and wars and ideas since then. This is also part of the shared heritage.

Regardless, it's not the same country as England, and it should only be up to the Scots if they're independent or not. Now, I don't think it's the same as in William Wallace's days, naturally, which is why I'm wondering about the actual benefits and drawbacks for Scotland and the UK.

The union of parliaments was agreed by the landed gentry in 1707. There was no referendum and no voting. The toffs sold out.

It was met with wide spread rioting across the country btw.

 

[w1z4rd]

Bit of a false equivalence there, I reckon. Scotland was an independent kingdom in 843 and there have been independence movements and wars and ideas since then. This is also part of the shared heritage.

Would using the Transvaal or Free State make you feel better? Independent Republics brutally invaded and conquered by the British for resources?

Regardless, it's not the same country as England

We were talking about the UK, not England (humour, not serious)

and it should only be up to the Scots if they're independent or not.

So its up to the people of the Transvaal if they should be independent or not? Im just wondering where this stops and starts at.... IE, what are the criteria? Do we take this all the way down to old city states? Like can Athens now declare it wants to hold a referendum and be its own separate state again?

Now, I don't think it's the same as in William Wallace's days, naturally, which is why I'm wondering about the actual benefits and drawbacks for Scotland and the UK.

For independence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence#Reasons
Against independence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence#Reasons_2

 

[Nicodeamus]

So its up to the people of the Transvaal if they should be independent or not? Im just wondering where this stops and starts at.... IE, what are the criteria? Do we take this all the way down to old city states?

The smallest denominator remains the individual. Which is basically what anarchists use. I would say if a minority in a govern region wants independence and their size and economic activity can afford it then why the hell not. If scottland gets independence then it will be used as a symbol for many separatist movements (good and bad).

The Kurds for example also deserve independence since the decline of the ottoman empire.

 

[w1z4rd]

The smallest denominator remains the individual. Which is basically what anarchists use. I would say if a minority in a govern region wants independence and their size and economic activity can afford it then why the hell not. If scottland gets independence then it will be used as a symbol for many separatist movements (good and bad).

The Kurds for example also deserve independence since the decline of the ottoman empire.

Yeah, I see there is already a province in Spain that wants to follow the Scotts. A little bit silly, but hey, nationalists are nationalists.

While everyone is jumping on the separatist bandwagon. I declare my home to be its own country! Everything on my property is now the Kingdom of Ghotia

 

[Nicodeamus]

Yeah, I see there is already a province in Spain that wants to follow the Scotts. A little bit silly, but hey, nationalists are nationalists.

While everyone is jumping on the separatist bandwagon. I declare my home to be its own country! Everything on my property is now the Kingdom of Ghotia

That province is Catalonia, it makes up 1/5 of the Spanish economy, but gets 7% return in Euro. Most of these movements are about economic power. Minorities that get subsidized will never want freedom.

 

[Spizz]

Would using the Transvaal or Free State make you feel better? Independent Republics brutally invaded and conquered by the British for resources?


We were talking about the UK, not England (humour, not serious)


So its up to the people of the Transvaal if they should be independent or not? Im just wondering where this stops and starts at.... IE, what are the criteria? Do we take this all the way down to old city states? Like can Athens now declare it wants to hold a referendum and be its own separate state again?



For independence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence#Reasons
Against independence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence#Reasons_2

I think you have the wrong end of the stick I'm afraid and are comparing apples with oranges. Scotland is a country now. At this very moment.

The difference is it It is a country sharing a political union with 3 other countries and now it may want to leave.

 

[w1z4rd]

I think you have the wrong end of the stick I'm afraid and are comparing apples with oranges. Scotland is a country now. At this very moment.

The difference is it It is a country sharing a political union with 3 other countries and now it may want to leave.

So only people who are countries now can get the freedom some Scots want? Everyone else is not allowed? Even if your country was brutally conquered and absorbed into another country?

 

[w1z4rd]

I love this New World disOrder people are aiming for