Sunette Bridges facebook hate speech case

[Nerfherder]

No, SA is still a embedded in white privilege - our very foundations are based on white privilege. Our cities and towns are designed for white convenience and although the apartheid laws no longer exist, white people, generally speaking, still have a higher quality of life and economic security when compared to non-whites. Yes, we do have AA/BEE which some would argue is a form of institutionalized racism but on the whole, whites are doing just fine here. When it becomes common place to see a white person hanging from a tree while others stand around looking happy a smug about the whitey who 'got what was coming', where the law doesn't apply when it comes to whiteys and they are looked upon with contempt as not even human and after 100 years of such behavior, then maybe you will have reason to take offence at racial slurs against white people in SA.

I agree... about the privilege.

Do you think though... that when it does change and the tables have turned, will those words still be offensive to black people ?

 

[faniebraai]

No, SA is still a embedded in white privilege - our very foundations are based on white privilege. Our cities and towns are designed for white convenience and although the apartheid laws no longer exist, white people, generally speaking, still have a higher quality of life and economic security when compared to non-whites. Yes, we do have AA/BEE which some would argue is a form of institutionalized racism but on the whole, whites are doing just fine here. When it becomes common place to see a white person hanging from a tree while others stand around looking happy a smug about the whitey who 'got what was coming', where the law doesn't apply when it comes to whiteys and they are looked upon with contempt as not even human and after 100 years of such behavior, then maybe you will have reason to take offence at racial slurs against white people in SA.

where is this "embedded with white privlege" as you call it.

I have a good job, buying a house, have two cars. What privilege have befallen me that has put me in this situation? None that I know off. Problem is, the government wants people of colour to be in the same position overnight. Rome is not built in a day.

 

[Fulcrum29]

Paul Posted?

Wow, looking at twitter comments, Im pretty disgusted at some Afrikaans people are responding. Mindless internet mob forming.

Paul replied:

Without qualification the idea that disgusting responses are from Afrikaans people is problematic. There is nothing unique about "Afrikaans people" with respect to being racist, racialist and so on.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

where is this "embedded with white privlege" as you call it.

I have a good job, buying a house, have two cars. What privilege have befallen me that has put me in this situation? None that I know off. Problem is, the government wants people of colour to be in the same position overnight. Rome is not built in a day.

Look at pretty much any metric you want to - white folk come off best. Employment, levels of education, affected by crime, wealth etc.

Now either that's cos whiteys are gosh darn amazing, or something happened in our past that gave white folk (in general) privilege that remains to this day.

 

[faniebraai]

Look at pretty much any metric you want to - white folk come off best. Employment, levels of education, affected by crime, wealth etc.

Now either that's cos whiteys are gosh darn amazing, or something happened in our past that gave white folk (in general) privilege that remains to this day.

white folk comes off best in employment? i don't think so. used to, of course, not any more. education? affected by crime? wealth? you are talking about the past here. obviously some legacy still remain in terms of the benefits already reaped, but current benefits dished out favours those of colour.

i'm not denying that something obviously happened in the past. but what makes the black guy sitting next to me at work any less privilege than I am?

 

[Sherbang]

where is this "embedded with white privlege" as you call it.

I have a good job, buying a house, have two cars. What privilege have befallen me that has put me in this situation? None that I know off. Problem is, the government wants people of colour to be in the same position overnight. Rome is not built in a day.

Think about it a bit more, I'm sure you can come up with a few examples of white privilege. For example, you probably have always lived in a town or city, rather than a township outside the town or city, so it's easier to get to where you need to be. Some black kids have to walk for hours to get to school. This is our legacy. You probably grew up with electricity and water in your house and have educated parents. Many black people have parents who are illiterate, making it difficult to foster education in the home. Most legal documents are written in English or Afrikaans, with some Latin thrown in, which is of benefit to people who have English as a first language. I agree that Rome was not built in a day but part of the rebuilding has to be recognition of white privilege - not as a way of blaming individuals or finger pointing but a recognition, by white people, that it exists and that it is a problem we all need to acknowledge and hopefully change.

 

[Nerfherder]

Yes, and my ancestors were also enslaved by Egyptians. That's not the point. We're talking about the world as it is today, not 2000 years ago when my ancestors fled Egypt in the dark of night.

Helps understand WHY more than anything else. History repeats itsself.

 

[Cray]

white folk comes off best in employment? i don't think so. used to, of course, not any more. education? affected by crime? wealth? you are talking about the past here. obviously some legacy still remain in terms of the benefits already reaped, but current benefits dished out favours those of colour.

i'm not denying that something obviously happened in the past. but what makes the black guy sitting next to me at work any less privilege than I am?

Education may have been in the past but if you grew up in SA and where educated at a former model C school then you have a huge current benefit in terms of education and the amount of money that was allocated to your education versus that of the average black person who grew up during the same time period. This will affect your current ability to get a decent job which then affects wealth, health etc.

 

[Nerfherder]

white folk comes off best in employment? i don't think so. used to, of course, not any more. education? affected by crime? wealth? you are talking about the past here. obviously some legacy still remain in terms of the benefits already reaped, but current benefits dished out favours those of colour.

i'm not denying that something obviously happened in the past. but what makes the black guy sitting next to me at work any less privilege than I am?

Ask him.

Go on the weekend and see where his parents live and how he supports them.

I think the incorrect assumption is that white privilege applies to ALL whites... it does not.

The same thing will happen with Black privilege, its only ever going to help a select few.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

white folk comes off best in employment? i don't think so. used to, of course, not any more. education? affected by crime? wealth? you are talking about the past here. obviously some legacy still remain in terms of the benefits already reaped, but current benefits dished out favours those of colour.

i'm not denying that something obviously happened in the past. but what makes the black guy sitting next to me at work any less privilege than I am?

Nope. Not talking about the past. Talking about the last 20 years.

http://businesstech.co.za/news/general/68842/uncovering-sa-employment-by-race/
http://www.citypress.co.za/columnists/whither-the-whites/
http://africacheck.org/reports/are-white-afrikaners-really-being-killed-like-flies/
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...-income-inequality-persists-census-shows.html

 

[faniebraai]

Think about it a bit more, I'm sure you can come up with a few examples of white privilege. For example, you probably have always lived in a town or city, rather than a township outside the town or city, so it's easier to get to where you need to be. Some black kids have to walk for hours to get to school. This is our legacy. You probably grew up with electricity and water in your house and have educated parents. Many black people have parents who are illiterate, making it difficult to foster education in the home. Most legal documents are written in English or Afrikaans, with some Latin thrown in, which is of benefit to people who have English as a first language. I agree that Rome was not built in a day but part of the rebuilding has to be recognition of white privilege - not as a way of blaming individuals or finger pointing but a recognition, by white people, that it exists and that it is a problem we all need to acknowledge and hopefully change.

Again, you talking about history, not the present. I have a job, the same one as the guy sitting next to me. Why does he choose to live in a township? So he can pay next to nothing for electricity and for his house, and still afford to drive a smart BMW? That's his choice. Me living in a suburb has got nothing to do with where I came from. It's a choice I made, presently.

The legacy that is left, like the uneducated parents, is just that, a legacy. I cannot be seen as privileged because of it.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Ask him.

Go on the weekend and see where his parents live and how he supports them.

I think the incorrect assumption is that white privilege applies to ALL whites... it does not.

The same thing will happen with Black privilege, its only ever going to help a select few.

Yep. White privilege doesn't mean that there aren't poor white people, or very rich black people. These are outliers.

 

[faniebraai]

Nope. Not talking about the past. Talking about the last 20 years.

http://businesstech.co.za/news/general/68842/uncovering-sa-employment-by-race/
http://www.citypress.co.za/columnists/whither-the-whites/
http://africacheck.org/reports/are-white-afrikaners-really-being-killed-like-flies/
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...-income-inequality-persists-census-shows.html

OK, so all those articles touch on unemployment. Can you see that all those figures have become better, for blacks. Employment percentages dropped, household incomes upped. And yes, it's not the same as the white household yet, of course it won't be. Do you expect overnight that a person who just finished matric must earn a high salary straight of the bat just because he's black. No way, he needs to work his way to top of the salary scale, just like everyone else. That the problem here. You can't change the legacy overnight. It's going to take a lot of years for things to equalize.

 

[faniebraai]

Ask him.

Go on the weekend and see where his parents live and how he supports them.

I think the incorrect assumption is that white privilege applies to ALL whites... it does not.

The same thing will happen with Black privilege, its only ever going to help a select few.

I think the problem here is the meaning of the word 'privilege'. So because he has to take care of his previously disadvantaged parents, that makes me more privileged? Maybe in the way OD and Sherbang have been meaning it.

In my opinion you are 'privileged' when better opportunities are afforded to you as a person/race.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

OK, so all those articles touch on unemployment. Can you see that all those figures have become better, for blacks. Employment percentages dropped, household incomes upped. And yes, it's not the same as the white household yet, of course it won't be. Do you expect overnight that a person who just finished matric must earn a high salary straight of the bat just because he's black. No way, he needs to work his way to top of the salary scale, just like everyone else. That the problem here. You can't change the legacy overnight. It's going to take a lot of years for things to equalize.

And crime, and wealth, and education...

And it's not just about someone who just finished matric, it's black graduates that take longer to get employed than white graduates, or stay unemployed for longer etc.

Anyway, yes, it'll obviously take time, but white privilege is still a reality at the moment and will likely be for a while.

I think part of the problem is that some people tend to equate white privilege with racism. Being a beneficiary of white privilege (as I was, for example) doesn't make you a racist or someone that has never worked for anything in his/her life. It's just a socio-economic reality in a country with a past such as ours.

 

[Nerfherder]

Education may have been in the past but if you grew up in SA and where educated at a former model C school then you have a huge current benefit in terms of education and the amount of money that was allocated to your education versus that of the average black person who grew up during the same time period. This will affect your current ability to get a decent job which then affects wealth, health etc.

I think we have to separate what we have made and what we have taken for ourselves.

My grandfather was the same age when apartheid started as I was when apartheid ended. He was poor and got very little education.
At the time he was doing the work black people did, living at the same level as a lot of black people. Apartheid helped him to the next level and did benefit him as he was no longer competing with black people for work.
His kids all went to good schools and even though none of then went to university they all got good jobs and were able to provide for them now.
Even so... the next generation (me) all got university degrees and the financial aid we needed to set up a good future.

That kind of privilege can't be taken away. So people need to get over that.... that is what we did with the hand that we were dealt, other did worse and others did better.
I refuse to feel bad for having this.

Other kinds of privilege can and should be taken away (exclusivity, exclusion etc)

 

[faniebraai]

And crime, and wealth, and education...

Crime is linked to where you decide to be. Wealth will come eventually, as the stats show that household incomes are on the increase big time. Education, you can't deny that education have greatly been improved.

And it's not just about someone who just finished matric, it's black graduates that take longer to get employed than white graduates, or stay unemployed for longer etc.

From one of your articles:
The point of whites turning to entrepreneurship can be further reinforced by data that suggests that, while a black university graduate is more likely than a white graduate to find a job within 12 months of graduation, white graduates are four times more likely to start and operate businesses.

Anyway, yes, it'll obviously take time, but white privilege is still a reality at the moment and will likely be for a while.

I think part of the problem is that some people tend to equate white privilege with racism. Being a beneficiary of white privilege (as I was, for example) doesn't make you a racist or someone that has never worked for anything in his/her life. It's just a socio-economic reality in a country with a past such as ours.

Don't agree with that use of the word privileged. Not saying you are wrong, I might be, just not how I am hearing it when you are saying it

But my situation is more privileged because of legacy. And people of colour and the government must realize that it will take time for generations to come to be in the same situation.

 

[Sherbang]

Here is an analogy (in the USA):

http://qz.com/257474/what-riding-my-bike-has-taught-me-about-white-privilege/

 

[OrbitalDawn]

I refuse to feel bad for having this.

Other kinds of privilege can and should be taken away (exclusivity, exclusion etc)

This is what it comes down to. I don't feel guilty, either, as I had no hand in it, but we need to empathise and face reality. White guilt is pointless and self-defeating, anyway.

 

[Nerfherder]

I think the problem here is the meaning of the word 'privilege'. So because he has to take care of his previously disadvantaged parents, that makes me more privileged? Maybe in the way OD and Sherbang have been meaning it.

In my opinion you are 'privileged' when better opportunities are afforded to you as a person/race.

I said the same in my other response now.

But the reality is that if you took every cent that I have and my house, car and job.... I could move somewhere else, start again and very quickly live a similar or better life.

That's real privilege The way I got it was unfair and no one can really change that. Taking that privilege away from my kids will also be hard and also it does not really fix things either.